D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Chaosmancer]

You know what I give.

Just reprint the 2014 DMG reorganized and slap the Bastion system and 1980 Greyhawk on the back. No new advice. Chapters referencing other chapters. No new ideas.There's no space.

That's what everyone wants.

Just because someone says they think your ideas are not good, does not mean they are against any new ideas or changes.

Instead of a a plane of dinosaurs where everything is dinosaurs.... what if we actually got more information on the Feywild, maybe even a place in the Feywild that had dinosaurs in it. That way it could be easier to run adventures in the Feywild, a place that already exists.

Endless caverns is already the Elemental Plane of Earth. Instead of making a second plane that is just endless cavern with no light, what if we got a detailed Dao city, maybe something that gave them a bit more heft like the City of Brass does in the plane of fire?

You know... fill in the planes we have, instead of making more empty planes with nothing in them and no reason to visit them.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I'd go with the Sulhaut Mountains, given that they have a sparse and mysterious description in the original lore ... and the location.

Given that the drow “weren’t noticed” before GDQ, there’s enough precedent that a PC race is from some nearby obscure enclave.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's not strictly true in Greyhawk. Oerth is quasi-medieval, and very human-centric where population mobility is low and inter-species antipathy is rife. There were certainly humanoid settlements specified and other random small lairs tucked away. Warforged will exist outside Blackmoor or tieflings outside the Great Kingdom but will require a specific origin story that is the meat and potatoes of character generation. And don't expect the average peasant to react favourably to either one.

I mean... should I?

Greyhawk is the home to the Mighty Servant of Leuk-o who fought against Lum the Mad and his Infernal Machine. Shield Guardians are also constructs made by wizards and dedicated to protecting and serving them, and since Shield Guardians have existed since at least 3rd edition, they are in Greyhawk already. So, while the average peasant might not welcome a Warforged like family.... would you throw rotten tomatoes at the magical bodyguard of someone who can destroy your village with a few words, like the mages who destroyed an entire country with the Rain of Colorless Fire?

This is another thing I just never understand when people talk about racism against Tieflings. Okay, sure, your average peasant might think that the Tiefling is a Cambion or a Demon... How do people react when a nigh-immortal engine of destruction walks into their village? If a Hezrou was summoned into a village, would the peasants sneer at it and throw rotten vegetables? A being so powerful and deadly, it can kill three men in six second, ripping them apart? The peasants wouldn't gather a mob to attack the Tiefling, they would, at worse freak out and flee, cowering in their homes. The reason they end up reacting with derision and scorn is because the DM knows the Tielfling character is not a demon, and that they are unlikely to start slaughtering people for treating them badly. Also, because they know a mob COULD kill the character.

And if Greyhawk really is a land of moral greys, where power rules above good and evil... then those villagers may roll out the red carpet, because if they can convince a powerful demon and his servants that they too are worth protecting, then they might be set for life! Because while it might be a demon... it is also incredibly powerful and they would rather it think favorably of them, rather than reduce their homes to ashes and pick its teeth clean with their children's bones.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Something that happened to come up in another thread ...

Back in 3.5E, Dragonborn were introduced in the Races of the Dragon. In that book, it was written out as a fairly new process introduced by Bahumat to combat Tiamat and her chromatic dragon's influence. The process to become a dragonborn literally had humans/demi-humans undergoing a metamorphosis into a dragonborn. This could be used to explain dragonborn in Greyhawk (insofar as 3E was using Greyhawk as the default); they are "soldiers" in Bahumat's army, individuals with no racial or national identity. It may very well be that Tiamat's forces may have captured metallic dragonborn and found a way to produce chromatic versions as well ... which could be a harbinger for a coming war between dragons and dragonkind...

HAHA!

That is literally the origin I've been using for Dragonborn in recent years. Not specifically Bahamut, but that Dragonborn (unless born to dragonborn parents) are people of other species who have been turned into Dragonborn by draconic magic. I've also been making Kobolds and Guard Drakes the same way, essentially making it so a dragon creates their own society of draconic beings with their own power to serve them.

I'll have to see if I can get a copy of that original lore to check out for ideas.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Instead of a a plane of dinosaurs where everything is dinosaurs

The thing about dinosaurs is 5e makes them relatively weak, and dull opponents. So a plane of dinosaurs is not going to be a very interesting place to adventure. However, a world were humans live alongside dinosaurs is a good way to make a place feel exotic. Of course there is no need to go to another plane for that, several D&D settings have such a place as part of the “real” world.

Fey dinosaurs do seem interesting though. That would make a good Domain of Delight.

Which brings us back to your point - why do you want to reinvent the wheel? If you already have a setting that does what you want, use that. If it’s similar, use it as a basis and tweak to taste.

That’s not to say you should never create something completely new, but you should have a good reason why you can’t just tweak something off the shelf. Saving money is a good reason though.

 

[Faolyn]

When I get what?

People who are long time fans of greyhawk exist, yes. They are not the target audience for a chapter on how to world-build. Sure, they may be excited about the inclusion of Greyhawk in the DMG, but the teaching aspect isn't for them. They are long-time fans of an established setting. Not new people coming how to learn how to build a setting.

People who know Tolkien tropes... again, they exist, but so what? Cultural osmosis will have told them Orcs are big, green and tribal. Which is nothing like Tolkien, but that's how orcs have been depicted since Warcraft redefined them. Elves? Other than being long-lived are elves magic addicts clinging to their noble glory? Violent xenophobes who eat humans? There are truly hundreds of different takes on "elf"... and most of them INCLUDING TOLKIEN do not apply to DnDn elves at all.

So two of your circles are nonsensical to consider, since they are mostly "long time fans of the setting" or "people who have read fantasy".

Your last circle is the closest to the actual audience being considered. People who are looking to be taught how to world-build. And, if you notice, that little purple part where you keep pointing to as a problem... is a tiny tiny sliver of that population, requiring that they ALSO be fans of greyhawk and ALSO conform to Tolkien lore, but not understand that Tolkien lore is different than DnD lore.

So again, how is this an issue, if there is a slim possibility that some small section of die hard fans who don't realize the game and fantasy have evolved over the last 40 years, might be upset that things have changed? They are a small part of the audience, and even then, half of them at least won't accept any changes, declaring that WotC is just dumb and stupid and doesn't know what REAL Greyhawk fans want.

Ah, so you still don't understand.

 

[Pauln6]

I mean... should I?

Greyhawk is the home to the Mighty Servant of Leuk-o who fought against Lum the Mad and his Infernal Machine. Shield Guardians are also constructs made by wizards and dedicated to protecting and serving them, and since Shield Guardians have existed since at least 3rd edition, they are in Greyhawk already. So, while the average peasant might not welcome a Warforged like family.... would you throw rotten tomatoes at the magical bodyguard of someone who can destroy your village with a few words, like the mages who destroyed an entire country with the Rain of Colorless Fire?

This is another thing I just never understand when people talk about racism against Tieflings. Okay, sure, your average peasant might think that the Tiefling is a Cambion or a Demon... How do people react when a nigh-immortal engine of destruction walks into their village? If a Hezrou was summoned into a village, would the peasants sneer at it and throw rotten vegetables? A being so powerful and deadly, it can kill three men in six second, ripping them apart? The peasants wouldn't gather a mob to attack the Tiefling, they would, at worse freak out and flee, cowering in their homes. The reason they end up reacting with derision and scorn is because the DM knows the Tielfling character is not a demon, and that they are unlikely to start slaughtering people for treating them badly. Also, because they know a mob COULD kill the character.

And if Greyhawk really is a land of moral greys, where power rules above good and evil... then those villagers may roll out the red carpet, because if they can convince a powerful demon and his servants that they too are worth protecting, then they might be set for life! Because while it might be a demon... it is also incredibly powerful and they would rather it think favorably of them, rather than reduce their homes to ashes and pick its teeth clean with their children's bones.

Any of those things could be true but not every realm is full of neutral greys. Some people may act with fear and shut up shop or put everything they own in a cart and flee. Some might seek help from the authorities or more powerful people. Some might choose to appease their new ruler. The proportion of people who might feel that way might depend on the general alignment of the ruling authorities and their day to day experiences.

I wish they would bring back a morale score for monsters/NPCs to give us a baseline on how easy it is to intimidate them. It would not be too hard to make adjustments on fly.

 

[Minigiant]

Just because someone says they think your ideas are not good, does not mean they are against any new ideas or changes.

Instead of a a plane of dinosaurs where everything is dinosaurs.... what if we actually got more information on the Feywild, maybe even a place in the Feywild that had dinosaurs in it. That way it could be easier to run adventures in the Feywild, a place that already exists.

Endless caverns is already the Elemental Plane of Earth. Instead of making a second plane that is just endless cavern with no light, what if we got a detailed Dao city, maybe something that gave them a bit more heft like the City of Brass does in the plane of fire?

You know... fill in the planes we have, instead of making more empty planes with nothing in them and no reason to visit them.

The response I got was that "we don't need new ideas", "refluff old ideas", and "new education practices that guide people into creating their own material is a waste of book space".

It's not just a Plane of Dinosaurs. It's a Plane of Prehistoric Power. The beasts are big and stupid. The people wild and rugged. The earth and waters untamed and untamable. And the magic is raw and before words and gestures were attached to them. And the riches pure and untapped. It's the Plane of Beasts much like the Feywild is the Plane of Fey.

It's less about being hostile to my ideas. It seems people are hostile any new ideas unless it's a remake to their favorite nostalgia product.

Like I said at the start, creating a new setting from scratch would help and inspire new DMs than reprinting a multiple decades old setting. This is nostalgia bait and IP spotlighting.