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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5182893" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>I apologize if I offended you.</p><p></p><p>My intent was to point out that 4E tactics basically require visual cues. Audio cues seem agonizingly slow and interrupt the DM. The players need to know what is going on and so does the DM.</p><p></p><p>Claiming that the game can be played with statuses not being visually available to the players and without slowing the game down seems suspect.</p><p></p><p>If the player needs to know status information, s/he would need to ask the DM over and over again: "Is this one bloodied? Is that one bloodied? Is that the one we stunned, or is this the one we stunned?". And unlike your claim to the contrary, bloodied is an extremely important status to know for focus fire.</p><p></p><p>I cannot imagine the players repeatedly asking the DM questions is faster than putting a token on a miniature. This is precisely why software like Maptools allows for many different condition markings on creatures.</p><p></p><p>In fact, players often asking the DM status questions can also result in the DM being overwhelmed. He has enough on his plate without 20 questions added to it. That's why many groups farm out chores to the players that the players can handle like Initiative, and Visual Statuses. The DM has enough going on without having to handle these as well.</p><p></p><p>So my point stands that your position of "if players need to know the status of an enemy, they can ask" seems extremely suspect. It just adds one more chore to the DM's list and would seem to slow down the game and result in misunderstandings, expecially if a player doesn't think to ask.</p><p></p><p>"If I would have known that Hobgoblin #4 was bloodied, I wouldn't have attacked Hobgoblin #5. Who besides the Fighter even hit Hobgoblin #4? Oh, the Sorcerer. I forgot that."</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>This is my experience as well.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I consider lengthy combats to be one contributing factor.</p><p></p><p>Combat without purpose can be a contributing factor.</p><p></p><p>One or more slow players (or anything which causes individual rounds to be long) can be a contributing factor.</p><p></p><p>Excessive bookkeeping can be a contributing factor.</p><p></p><p>Players who cannot really play their PCs (e.g. Stun, or Immobilized for a melee PC) can be a contributing factor, at least for those players.</p><p></p><p>A lackluster or uninteresting encounter can be one contributing factor, etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The more of these types of elements which can contribute to grind, the more likely the encounter will become grindy for one or more people.</p><p></p><p>And, it does not have to be grindy for everyone at the table for it to be grindy. I joined a Champions group (an hour plus from my home, so it was a substantial distance to play) and a slightly over one turn (about 6 or so rounds in D&D terms) encounter took 4+ hours to play. The DM was writing stuff down behind his screen and it took 1 to 2 minutes after every single PC and NPC's turn. Or, the DM was looking up a rule. Or, someone was telling a story. It went on and on.</p><p></p><p>The DM did not consider it grindy. He considered it a lot of fun. I was falling asleep at my chair.</p><p></p><p>So, I posted in the group blog a few suggestions on how to speed up an encounter. The DM got all ticked off, especially when a few other players chimed in that combat was pretty darn slow. The entire group ended up disbanding over it cause there were a few other players who had been resenting this for a long time and just never spoke up on it. I felt bad that they broke up, but there was no way that I was traveling 2.5 hours round trip, just to be put to sleep by a slow DM (it's not just players that are slow).</p><p></p><p>I often remember this incident when my game starts to bog down. I go out of my way to speed it up, make it more fun for my players, and try to keep an eye out for players who appear to be bored or restless. It's not just combat without purpose. Lots of different things can add to grind. And what is grindy to one person in a given situation might not be grindy to another.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 5182893, member: 2011"] I apologize if I offended you. My intent was to point out that 4E tactics basically require visual cues. Audio cues seem agonizingly slow and interrupt the DM. The players need to know what is going on and so does the DM. Claiming that the game can be played with statuses not being visually available to the players and without slowing the game down seems suspect. If the player needs to know status information, s/he would need to ask the DM over and over again: "Is this one bloodied? Is that one bloodied? Is that the one we stunned, or is this the one we stunned?". And unlike your claim to the contrary, bloodied is an extremely important status to know for focus fire. I cannot imagine the players repeatedly asking the DM questions is faster than putting a token on a miniature. This is precisely why software like Maptools allows for many different condition markings on creatures. In fact, players often asking the DM status questions can also result in the DM being overwhelmed. He has enough on his plate without 20 questions added to it. That's why many groups farm out chores to the players that the players can handle like Initiative, and Visual Statuses. The DM has enough going on without having to handle these as well. So my point stands that your position of "if players need to know the status of an enemy, they can ask" seems extremely suspect. It just adds one more chore to the DM's list and would seem to slow down the game and result in misunderstandings, expecially if a player doesn't think to ask. "If I would have known that Hobgoblin #4 was bloodied, I wouldn't have attacked Hobgoblin #5. Who besides the Fighter even hit Hobgoblin #4? Oh, the Sorcerer. I forgot that." This is my experience as well. I consider lengthy combats to be one contributing factor. Combat without purpose can be a contributing factor. One or more slow players (or anything which causes individual rounds to be long) can be a contributing factor. Excessive bookkeeping can be a contributing factor. Players who cannot really play their PCs (e.g. Stun, or Immobilized for a melee PC) can be a contributing factor, at least for those players. A lackluster or uninteresting encounter can be one contributing factor, etc. The more of these types of elements which can contribute to grind, the more likely the encounter will become grindy for one or more people. And, it does not have to be grindy for everyone at the table for it to be grindy. I joined a Champions group (an hour plus from my home, so it was a substantial distance to play) and a slightly over one turn (about 6 or so rounds in D&D terms) encounter took 4+ hours to play. The DM was writing stuff down behind his screen and it took 1 to 2 minutes after every single PC and NPC's turn. Or, the DM was looking up a rule. Or, someone was telling a story. It went on and on. The DM did not consider it grindy. He considered it a lot of fun. I was falling asleep at my chair. So, I posted in the group blog a few suggestions on how to speed up an encounter. The DM got all ticked off, especially when a few other players chimed in that combat was pretty darn slow. The entire group ended up disbanding over it cause there were a few other players who had been resenting this for a long time and just never spoke up on it. I felt bad that they broke up, but there was no way that I was traveling 2.5 hours round trip, just to be put to sleep by a slow DM (it's not just players that are slow). I often remember this incident when my game starts to bog down. I go out of my way to speed it up, make it more fun for my players, and try to keep an eye out for players who appear to be bored or restless. It's not just combat without purpose. Lots of different things can add to grind. And what is grindy to one person in a given situation might not be grindy to another. [/QUOTE]
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