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Grugnur died prone in a pile of his own swordthanes!
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6400712" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Thanks.</p><p></p><p>My average session is probably about 3 hours long, sometimes 4: we tend to meet up around lunchtime every second or third Sunday, start between 2 and 3 (once everyone has arrived, caught up, etc) and finish between 5.30 and 6 (4 of us have kids who need to be ready for school the next day).</p><p></p><p>Generally I find it is about 3 to 4 sessions per level. That generally means between one and two serious encounters per session. The post at the top of this thread covers 3 sessions: one for the big assault on the first underground position; one for the formorians and cyclopes and storm giant; one for the final assault and the subsequent negotiations. Around these there will be discussions about planning, longer-term goals, all the usual stuff that's part of a long-time group in a long-running campaign.</p><p></p><p>I think that, for this to be viable as an RPG experience (especially on the combat side), you need at least two things: players who enjoy the more technical, wargaming side of things; and players/GM who will bring out the story elements during combat resolution. This means things like banter, debates about which foes to tackle, how to handle surrender negotiations (this happened with the formorians and the storm giant), tactical choices that are expressive of character personality (which in 4e should also be channelled through power/feat selection), etc.</p><p></p><p>In G2, which as I've said is a d20-rolling fest, the story development isn't much richer than that. In other encounters (eg with <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?353496-First-time-godslayers-PCs-kill-Torog" target="_blank">Torog</a>, or with the <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355600-Session-report-(Apect-of)-Vecna-defeated-demon-bargained-with" target="_blank">hags and Vecna</a>) there is more story development taking place during the combat resolution.</p><p></p><p>I think that, with a more disciplined table who took a less laid-back approach, you could double the speed at which my game plays. But because we're a bunch of 40-somethings goofing off on a Sunday afternoon, who can be bothered to try for that level of discipline? I think if you got rid of the various features that affect the speed of play - extensive power selections, off-turn actions, nitty-gritty control effects, etc - then you might want to move away from 4e altogether, as for me at least they are what is distinctive about the combat side of the game.</p><p></p><p>A month or so ago when we weren't quorate for D&D, I ran a Burning Wheel session (report <a href="http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?736425-Burning-Wheel-First-Burning-Wheel-session" target="_blank">here</a>). In some ways a very different system from 4e, less gonzo and more swords & sorcery. I expected it to play much faster than 4e, and it did (and the players noticed). It's a different experience. But I wouldn't try and do Against the Giants in Burning Wheel!</p><p></p><p>We don't really do "skirmishes" - maybe a few at very low levels, but I think they are a waste of time in 4e. I know that not everyone agrees, of course - I'm just reporting my own experiences with the system.</p><p></p><p>I tend to find that passive esource depletion (eg surge attrition) in and off itself is not that interesting - I think you need to be forcing active choices about use of dailies, action points etc and small encounters just won't do that. Especially not at epic. I would say at least since the beginning of paragon I have rarely framed a combat at less than level+2, and more often at level + 3 to level +6. These take longer to play through - in a 3 hour session my group won't get through more than one level +6 encounter - but have the level of threat and tactical death to make the combat something the players take seriously.</p><p></p><p>The other side of this is that the players must know they're not easily going to get extended rests. For instance, in the assault on G2 here are the encounters since the last extended rest:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">* The PCs start the day at 26th level after beating Vecna's aspect and resting in the hag house;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* Comp 3 L26 skill challenge to deal with the demon in the Red Grove;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* A L 32 encounter (in stages but with no short rest), taking place across the western side of the rift, starting with eladrin envoys (level 26 in themselves), involving the remorhaz at the bottom of the rift (level 22 in itself), and then giants at the entry end of the rift (level 26 in themselves), plus maybe some other odds and sods I can't remember - this encounter at one point involved three fronts, with the dwarf solo-ing the giants, the wizard and ranger flying on a tamed giant frosthawk to help him out (the rift is very <em>long</em>, and every 10' sq counts as 2 4e squares), and the paladin swallowed by the remorhaz with the sorcerer helping him escape at the bottom of the rift;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* A level 27 encounter with the dragons (the hardest EPL+1 encounter we've done for a long time);</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* The PCs reach 27th;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* A level 31 encounter with the first line of underground defence - compared to the dragon fight this was surprisingly easy;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* A level 29 encounter with the fomorians and their cyclopes guards;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* A level 26 encounter with the solo storm giant - this encounter involved a couple of significant crits, including one with a fighter daily that limits the target to basic attack, which is terrible against a solo - at this point the PCs had about 12 surges left between them, and use the ranger-clerics Mass Cure Serious Wounds to get back up to full;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* A level 27 encounter in the great hall (it could have been bigger, but the balance of forces surrendered and rather than give combat XP for creatures that never actually came into the fray I transitioned into a skill challenge), which was pretty easy;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* A level 27 complexity 3 skill challenge to negotiate with Vlaad who assumed control after Grugnur's fall.</p><p></p><p>The players are anticipating one more combat - with the Prince of Frost and undead entourage - before resting. Of the 5 PCs, 3 have one "when you die" recovery available, the paladin has 2 of them, and the wizard doesn't have one of these but does have a "when you are dropped to zero gain N temp hp" which is not too different. And there are at least two unused daily fire zones in the party, which will be trotted out no doubt for the Prince of Frost. Plus the wizard still has two or three good dailies left.</p><p></p><p>I think this is the sort of encounter-suite that will make resource attrition meaningful at paragon and epic. Otherwise the players would just laugh through everything, which would then make the lengthy playing time kind-of pointless.</p><p></p><p>As you can see a bit from the above, and it's clearer in some other actual play reports of slightly less combat-heavy scenarios, I tend to prefer skill challenges to combat skirmishes as the link between big "set-pieces".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6400712, member: 42582"] Thanks. My average session is probably about 3 hours long, sometimes 4: we tend to meet up around lunchtime every second or third Sunday, start between 2 and 3 (once everyone has arrived, caught up, etc) and finish between 5.30 and 6 (4 of us have kids who need to be ready for school the next day). Generally I find it is about 3 to 4 sessions per level. That generally means between one and two serious encounters per session. The post at the top of this thread covers 3 sessions: one for the big assault on the first underground position; one for the formorians and cyclopes and storm giant; one for the final assault and the subsequent negotiations. Around these there will be discussions about planning, longer-term goals, all the usual stuff that's part of a long-time group in a long-running campaign. I think that, for this to be viable as an RPG experience (especially on the combat side), you need at least two things: players who enjoy the more technical, wargaming side of things; and players/GM who will bring out the story elements during combat resolution. This means things like banter, debates about which foes to tackle, how to handle surrender negotiations (this happened with the formorians and the storm giant), tactical choices that are expressive of character personality (which in 4e should also be channelled through power/feat selection), etc. In G2, which as I've said is a d20-rolling fest, the story development isn't much richer than that. In other encounters (eg with [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?353496-First-time-godslayers-PCs-kill-Torog]Torog[/url], or with the [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355600-Session-report-(Apect-of)-Vecna-defeated-demon-bargained-with]hags and Vecna[/url]) there is more story development taking place during the combat resolution. I think that, with a more disciplined table who took a less laid-back approach, you could double the speed at which my game plays. But because we're a bunch of 40-somethings goofing off on a Sunday afternoon, who can be bothered to try for that level of discipline? I think if you got rid of the various features that affect the speed of play - extensive power selections, off-turn actions, nitty-gritty control effects, etc - then you might want to move away from 4e altogether, as for me at least they are what is distinctive about the combat side of the game. A month or so ago when we weren't quorate for D&D, I ran a Burning Wheel session (report [url=http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?736425-Burning-Wheel-First-Burning-Wheel-session]here[/url]). In some ways a very different system from 4e, less gonzo and more swords & sorcery. I expected it to play much faster than 4e, and it did (and the players noticed). It's a different experience. But I wouldn't try and do Against the Giants in Burning Wheel! We don't really do "skirmishes" - maybe a few at very low levels, but I think they are a waste of time in 4e. I know that not everyone agrees, of course - I'm just reporting my own experiences with the system. I tend to find that passive esource depletion (eg surge attrition) in and off itself is not that interesting - I think you need to be forcing active choices about use of dailies, action points etc and small encounters just won't do that. Especially not at epic. I would say at least since the beginning of paragon I have rarely framed a combat at less than level+2, and more often at level + 3 to level +6. These take longer to play through - in a 3 hour session my group won't get through more than one level +6 encounter - but have the level of threat and tactical death to make the combat something the players take seriously. The other side of this is that the players must know they're not easily going to get extended rests. For instance, in the assault on G2 here are the encounters since the last extended rest: [indent]* The PCs start the day at 26th level after beating Vecna's aspect and resting in the hag house; * Comp 3 L26 skill challenge to deal with the demon in the Red Grove; * A L 32 encounter (in stages but with no short rest), taking place across the western side of the rift, starting with eladrin envoys (level 26 in themselves), involving the remorhaz at the bottom of the rift (level 22 in itself), and then giants at the entry end of the rift (level 26 in themselves), plus maybe some other odds and sods I can't remember - this encounter at one point involved three fronts, with the dwarf solo-ing the giants, the wizard and ranger flying on a tamed giant frosthawk to help him out (the rift is very [I]long[/I], and every 10' sq counts as 2 4e squares), and the paladin swallowed by the remorhaz with the sorcerer helping him escape at the bottom of the rift; * A level 27 encounter with the dragons (the hardest EPL+1 encounter we've done for a long time); * The PCs reach 27th; * A level 31 encounter with the first line of underground defence - compared to the dragon fight this was surprisingly easy; * A level 29 encounter with the fomorians and their cyclopes guards; * A level 26 encounter with the solo storm giant - this encounter involved a couple of significant crits, including one with a fighter daily that limits the target to basic attack, which is terrible against a solo - at this point the PCs had about 12 surges left between them, and use the ranger-clerics Mass Cure Serious Wounds to get back up to full; * A level 27 encounter in the great hall (it could have been bigger, but the balance of forces surrendered and rather than give combat XP for creatures that never actually came into the fray I transitioned into a skill challenge), which was pretty easy; * A level 27 complexity 3 skill challenge to negotiate with Vlaad who assumed control after Grugnur's fall.[/indent] The players are anticipating one more combat - with the Prince of Frost and undead entourage - before resting. Of the 5 PCs, 3 have one "when you die" recovery available, the paladin has 2 of them, and the wizard doesn't have one of these but does have a "when you are dropped to zero gain N temp hp" which is not too different. And there are at least two unused daily fire zones in the party, which will be trotted out no doubt for the Prince of Frost. Plus the wizard still has two or three good dailies left. I think this is the sort of encounter-suite that will make resource attrition meaningful at paragon and epic. Otherwise the players would just laugh through everything, which would then make the lengthy playing time kind-of pointless. As you can see a bit from the above, and it's clearer in some other actual play reports of slightly less combat-heavy scenarios, I tend to prefer skill challenges to combat skirmishes as the link between big "set-pieces". [/QUOTE]
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