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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5097858" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>3E's math AFAIK is basically identical to the math in 1e and 2e (which ARE identical, "thac0" is just a +1/ level to-hit bonus). So in 2e fighters got a +1 to-hit every level, clerics + 2/3 levels, etc. There were NO other built-in progressions of any kind in 2e. Presumably PCs get better armor and magic weapons so their AC improved and to-hit for fighters might improve more than 1/level.</p><p></p><p>The point is that making the system totally "flat" means you have several issues, especially if you try to make it the same for PCs and monsters.</p><p></p><p>1) There's no room for optional bonuses for PCs. If both sides to-hit stays static then +10 is about as much wiggle room as the system ever gives you and that includes enhancement, stat bonuses, and conditionals. That isn't a lot of room to work with.</p><p></p><p>2) The same issue exists with defenses. </p><p></p><p>3) How do you make the higher level monsters meaningfully tougher? They can have higher to-hit and defenses but that only goes so far. The real problem is that if hit points don't change much with levels either you don't have much in the way of room to add damage bonuses to anyone either.</p><p></p><p>Oddly what ends up happening is a level 1 PC is not much less effective than a level 10 PC, he just has crappier equipment. This was pretty close to the case in old D&D, even with scaling to-hit because a LOT of monsters didn't really have highly scaled defenses. What you ended up with was combat where a couple of hits killed things and it was "fast" in a sense but not very interesting. Tactics were really pretty negligible.</p><p></p><p>I don't really think there is a lot of design space left within d20 is the problem. If the system used d100 then things could progress on a small curve and magic etc could give fairly small bonuses. 4e got it right by increasing hit points across the board, which allows a more scaled damage output, but then they're locked into the d20, which is convenient but too small.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5097858, member: 82106"] 3E's math AFAIK is basically identical to the math in 1e and 2e (which ARE identical, "thac0" is just a +1/ level to-hit bonus). So in 2e fighters got a +1 to-hit every level, clerics + 2/3 levels, etc. There were NO other built-in progressions of any kind in 2e. Presumably PCs get better armor and magic weapons so their AC improved and to-hit for fighters might improve more than 1/level. The point is that making the system totally "flat" means you have several issues, especially if you try to make it the same for PCs and monsters. 1) There's no room for optional bonuses for PCs. If both sides to-hit stays static then +10 is about as much wiggle room as the system ever gives you and that includes enhancement, stat bonuses, and conditionals. That isn't a lot of room to work with. 2) The same issue exists with defenses. 3) How do you make the higher level monsters meaningfully tougher? They can have higher to-hit and defenses but that only goes so far. The real problem is that if hit points don't change much with levels either you don't have much in the way of room to add damage bonuses to anyone either. Oddly what ends up happening is a level 1 PC is not much less effective than a level 10 PC, he just has crappier equipment. This was pretty close to the case in old D&D, even with scaling to-hit because a LOT of monsters didn't really have highly scaled defenses. What you ended up with was combat where a couple of hits killed things and it was "fast" in a sense but not very interesting. Tactics were really pretty negligible. I don't really think there is a lot of design space left within d20 is the problem. If the system used d100 then things could progress on a small curve and magic etc could give fairly small bonuses. 4e got it right by increasing hit points across the board, which allows a more scaled damage output, but then they're locked into the d20, which is convenient but too small. [/QUOTE]
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