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Gygax on Realism in Game Design
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<blockquote data-quote="Unwise" data-source="post: 6010201" data-attributes="member: 98008"><p>I'm just curious, what was the <em>correct</em> answer to those three examples? The answer that would not indicate a metagaming mentality?</p><p> </p><p>It might just be a matter of definition, but I don't agree with this, the issue is that I would say Gygaxian players reactions are a bit 'gameist' but not metagaming at all. Meta-gaming in our culture tends to be a judgement call against munchkinism and is not what is happening here. They are playing the game presented to them, in the way that it has been proscribed in the rules <em>and culture of the gaming table</em>. </p><p> </p><p>Meta-gaming would be using out-of-game knowledge about the DMs mood or preferences for instance. E.g. "He just bought the Underdark book, so my character blames the Drow for this kidnapping. Chances are I will be right".</p><p> </p><p>Take my first example for instance. Imagine this situation where 10 minutes earlier a PC got shot at point blank range with a crossbow during combat and it did minimal damage to them. Now they are in pretty much the same situation, they try to attack the enemy like they did last time, but the DM just says they are shot through the heart and die. </p><p> </p><p>- The player knows it is "silly" that crossbows don't do much damage, but is playing the game presented to him. He is not one of those annoying guys that spends his time ranting about how much platemail a longbow can penetrate etc.</p><p>- The sudden shift from gameism to realism was not necessarily overt.</p><p>- The DM comes across as the bad guy now, for just 'breaking the rules' and summarily and arbitarilly executing a PC.</p><p> </p><p>What happened here was a failure to communicate the shift in scene and paradigm (for lack of a better word).</p><p> </p><p>In the second example, last game session say the Fighter got knocked over a cliff of that height during combat, he took the significant damage, climbed back up and rejoined the party. Now the evil villian is about to get away with the princess. Why wouldn't the brave knight risk bodily harm to himself and jump down after him? After all, 24hrs earlier he did that. So he jumps, and the DM describes that he is now a red smear on the ground...</p><p> </p><p><em>If the DM likes to swap regularly between gritty realism and heroic gameism, then occasionally there will be a jarring disconnection and uncertainty regarding PC actions.</em></p><p> </p><p>I know this could be true in my games, at least for a new player that joined our group. I guess in reflection, we have two unspoken rules 1) You can get away with more in combat than out of it e.g. falling, running through fire etc. and 2) If what you are doing seems stupid, it probably is. e.g. jumping down a 50' cliff.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Unwise, post: 6010201, member: 98008"] I'm just curious, what was the [I]correct[/I] answer to those three examples? The answer that would not indicate a metagaming mentality? It might just be a matter of definition, but I don't agree with this, the issue is that I would say Gygaxian players reactions are a bit 'gameist' but not metagaming at all. Meta-gaming in our culture tends to be a judgement call against munchkinism and is not what is happening here. They are playing the game presented to them, in the way that it has been proscribed in the rules [I]and culture of the gaming table[/I]. Meta-gaming would be using out-of-game knowledge about the DMs mood or preferences for instance. E.g. "He just bought the Underdark book, so my character blames the Drow for this kidnapping. Chances are I will be right". Take my first example for instance. Imagine this situation where 10 minutes earlier a PC got shot at point blank range with a crossbow during combat and it did minimal damage to them. Now they are in pretty much the same situation, they try to attack the enemy like they did last time, but the DM just says they are shot through the heart and die. - The player knows it is "silly" that crossbows don't do much damage, but is playing the game presented to him. He is not one of those annoying guys that spends his time ranting about how much platemail a longbow can penetrate etc. - The sudden shift from gameism to realism was not necessarily overt. - The DM comes across as the bad guy now, for just 'breaking the rules' and summarily and arbitarilly executing a PC. What happened here was a failure to communicate the shift in scene and paradigm (for lack of a better word). In the second example, last game session say the Fighter got knocked over a cliff of that height during combat, he took the significant damage, climbed back up and rejoined the party. Now the evil villian is about to get away with the princess. Why wouldn't the brave knight risk bodily harm to himself and jump down after him? After all, 24hrs earlier he did that. So he jumps, and the DM describes that he is now a red smear on the ground... [I]If the DM likes to swap regularly between gritty realism and heroic gameism, then occasionally there will be a jarring disconnection and uncertainty regarding PC actions.[/I] I know this could be true in my games, at least for a new player that joined our group. I guess in reflection, we have two unspoken rules 1) You can get away with more in combat than out of it e.g. falling, running through fire etc. and 2) If what you are doing seems stupid, it probably is. e.g. jumping down a 50' cliff. [/QUOTE]
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