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Have you experienced very high-level (18+) play in 5e? Tell me about it!
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<blockquote data-quote="waxtransient" data-source="post: 6978428" data-attributes="member: 6676267"><p>My current campaign has one more session left, and I'm sort of doing the DMG suggestion of the party getting epic boons every 30k past level 20, so using that they are levels 25-27 (I’m also allowing multiclassing post-level 20). They started with LMoP, moved into PotA, and they all wanted to get to level 20 since they hadn't done it before, so it's been homebrew ever since.</p><p></p><p>1. There is a war cleric, a battle master fighter, dragon blood sorcerer, and a character that is my 5e take on a gestalt swashbuckler rogue/ chain warlock (he's getting the gestalt stuff from a unique legendary weapon), although with the weird post-level 20 stuff he now has 5 levels in the revised hunter conclave ranger as well.</p><p></p><p>2. The Kobold Press Tome of Beasts and the epic monster update thread here at enworld have been invaluable to me, as I feel that the monster manual just doesn't have many monsters that challenge a high level party. From the MM, the party has fought adult and ancient dragons, a super-powered ancient dracolich (I tried to recreate the Ghost King), a small horde of fire giants and iron golems, a lich, and a balor at high levels. From the Tome of Beasts, the party fought eye golems, cambium, Valkyrie, son of Fenris, blood hags, Gug, Gnarljaks, Voidlings, automata devils, mask wights, a mordant snare (controlling young dragons of each chromatic type), the demon lord of night with owl harpies, and horakhs. From the internet, I used Penumbra, lord of nightmares, and Bel (not your average pit fiend). From enworld’s epic monster update thread, I used Ashardalon and will be using Graz’zt.</p><p></p><p>3. High level play has mostly been a blast. The bulk of the party’s high level encounters took place in a long dungeon in Penumbra’s demi-plane, and I used a few tactics that really enhanced things. First, most of the rooms were also custom lairs I cooked up. These were invaluable because, as others have already pointed out, high level characters can do degenerate things that can turn an otherwise well thought out encounter on its head, and so it is nice to have an effect that essentially functions as a monster that can’t be killed, counterspelled, or otherwise nerfed, that always has a high initiative, that can do exactly what you need it to do to fill in any gaps in the encounter. I should point out that creating lairs is also great because it is just so much easier than creating an entire monster stat block.</p><p></p><p>I also used the madness tables in the DMG, plus my own custom madness table, and had madness happen to the party A LOT while they were in Penumbra’s realm. This had the effects of weakening the party’s overall combat effectiveness while also taxing the cleric‘s resources by keeping everyone relatively sane using restoration spells. This felt like the high level sweet spot to me, as the madness ended up providing a lot of role play opportunities, which made them a hilarious amount of fun, while also meeting my goals of actually weakening the party. This type of thing is the way to deal with high level encounters, I think, rather than following the advice given upthread of just telling your characters that the hard-earned, high level spells that they cast don’t actually work because reasons.</p><p></p><p>The final tactic I used was similar to one mentioned upthread: chain subsequent battles together without a chance to long rest, or sometimes even short rest. Allowing high level parties to nova all the time will make all encounters easy.</p><p>The result of all of these tactics was creating a feel that resembled that I think good mid-level play feels like: a few trivial encounters, a few fighting-for-their-lives encounters, with the bulk of the encounters falling somewhere in between those extremes.</p><p></p><p>4. I don’t think any rules of the game need to be changed to make high level play better; it seems to function well as is. However, I didn’t have a power-gaming wizard in my party though, and I could see how that might change things. For me, the lairs have been a lifesaver, as have the 3rd party and home brew high level content.</p><p></p><p>I know there seems to be a lot of curiosity about high level play around the forums (I had a similar length post written up a couple weeks ago on another thread discussing high level play but my browser ate it; using Word this time) so if anyone has any other questions about high level DM’ing, or how the classes in my game performed at high level, I’m happy to answer!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="waxtransient, post: 6978428, member: 6676267"] My current campaign has one more session left, and I'm sort of doing the DMG suggestion of the party getting epic boons every 30k past level 20, so using that they are levels 25-27 (I’m also allowing multiclassing post-level 20). They started with LMoP, moved into PotA, and they all wanted to get to level 20 since they hadn't done it before, so it's been homebrew ever since. 1. There is a war cleric, a battle master fighter, dragon blood sorcerer, and a character that is my 5e take on a gestalt swashbuckler rogue/ chain warlock (he's getting the gestalt stuff from a unique legendary weapon), although with the weird post-level 20 stuff he now has 5 levels in the revised hunter conclave ranger as well. 2. The Kobold Press Tome of Beasts and the epic monster update thread here at enworld have been invaluable to me, as I feel that the monster manual just doesn't have many monsters that challenge a high level party. From the MM, the party has fought adult and ancient dragons, a super-powered ancient dracolich (I tried to recreate the Ghost King), a small horde of fire giants and iron golems, a lich, and a balor at high levels. From the Tome of Beasts, the party fought eye golems, cambium, Valkyrie, son of Fenris, blood hags, Gug, Gnarljaks, Voidlings, automata devils, mask wights, a mordant snare (controlling young dragons of each chromatic type), the demon lord of night with owl harpies, and horakhs. From the internet, I used Penumbra, lord of nightmares, and Bel (not your average pit fiend). From enworld’s epic monster update thread, I used Ashardalon and will be using Graz’zt. 3. High level play has mostly been a blast. The bulk of the party’s high level encounters took place in a long dungeon in Penumbra’s demi-plane, and I used a few tactics that really enhanced things. First, most of the rooms were also custom lairs I cooked up. These were invaluable because, as others have already pointed out, high level characters can do degenerate things that can turn an otherwise well thought out encounter on its head, and so it is nice to have an effect that essentially functions as a monster that can’t be killed, counterspelled, or otherwise nerfed, that always has a high initiative, that can do exactly what you need it to do to fill in any gaps in the encounter. I should point out that creating lairs is also great because it is just so much easier than creating an entire monster stat block. I also used the madness tables in the DMG, plus my own custom madness table, and had madness happen to the party A LOT while they were in Penumbra’s realm. This had the effects of weakening the party’s overall combat effectiveness while also taxing the cleric‘s resources by keeping everyone relatively sane using restoration spells. This felt like the high level sweet spot to me, as the madness ended up providing a lot of role play opportunities, which made them a hilarious amount of fun, while also meeting my goals of actually weakening the party. This type of thing is the way to deal with high level encounters, I think, rather than following the advice given upthread of just telling your characters that the hard-earned, high level spells that they cast don’t actually work because reasons. The final tactic I used was similar to one mentioned upthread: chain subsequent battles together without a chance to long rest, or sometimes even short rest. Allowing high level parties to nova all the time will make all encounters easy. The result of all of these tactics was creating a feel that resembled that I think good mid-level play feels like: a few trivial encounters, a few fighting-for-their-lives encounters, with the bulk of the encounters falling somewhere in between those extremes. 4. I don’t think any rules of the game need to be changed to make high level play better; it seems to function well as is. However, I didn’t have a power-gaming wizard in my party though, and I could see how that might change things. For me, the lairs have been a lifesaver, as have the 3rd party and home brew high level content. I know there seems to be a lot of curiosity about high level play around the forums (I had a similar length post written up a couple weeks ago on another thread discussing high level play but my browser ate it; using Word this time) so if anyone has any other questions about high level DM’ing, or how the classes in my game performed at high level, I’m happy to answer! [/QUOTE]
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