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Heavy Fighters v. Light Fighters: An equal fight?
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<blockquote data-quote="Anax" data-source="post: 1873624" data-attributes="member: 19868"><p>You might want to take a look at this, although it's more about large-scale combat. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/aow.html" target="_blank">http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/aow.html</a></p><p></p><p>In a one-on-one fight and within the D&D framework, I do think that it depends heavily on the terrain, except for one thing: unless your light fighter has a technique to deal heavy damage on a single strike (for example: Rogue levels for Sneak Attack, or Duelist levels for Precise Strike) or can make ranged attacks, then that fighter is going to be at a disadvantage, as the heavy fighter can always get at least one solid attack off every round that the light fighter dodges in to attack.</p><p></p><p>Sadly, I have to say that while the *right* thing for the mobile fighter to do here is trip attacks or grapple attacks, that probably won't work well--these are heavily focused on strength. Even if the heavy fighter hasn't neglected to take Improved Grapple or the like in a defensive capacity, things still aren't great for the light fighter. He can close in and force the heavy fighter to give up his heavy weapon, but the better strength and armor is still going to cause trouble.</p><p></p><p>I do think that monks are the best choice for taking on fighters, though, specifically because they don't lose much in a grapple. Unlike the fighter, who must switch to a secondary weapon and lose damage output during a grapple, the monk can keep using her unarmed strikes at full power. On the down side, a monk's flurry of blows cannot be used for grappling. So this all comes down to whether the monk's better damage beats the fighter's better attack rolls.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So, in short: A monk (who, while a "light fighter" type, should put a pretty good amount of stats in strength) is the type most likely to take a normal fighter in an even fight.</p><p></p><p>In a fight with interesting terrain (and to be honest, most fights should have *some* sort of interesting terrain), a duelist or a fighter/rogue may be able to do enough damage during each attack doding in to keep things interesting.</p><p></p><p>But in general, a heavily armed and armored fighter is going to beat a lightly armed and armored fighter if they find themselves fighting each other for some reason, unless the heavily armed and armored fighter has neglected his study of tactics and is actually a Barbarian in disguise.</p><p></p><p>As for why light infantry beats heavy infantry in that URL I mentioned: That would be because what they describe as light infantry is *archers*. And I think that with infantry in D&D that's an important rock-paper-scissors cycle: heavy infantry beats light infantry, light infantry beats archers, archers beat heavy infantry. And light infantry (especially the sorts who get special bonus damage amounts) can be very seriously deadly if they are fighting together with heavy infantry.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Now, on to gripes and moans: Right now, my primary character is a halfling monk with 10 strength and 20 dexterity. And let me tell you--this is a *really* difficult path to take. When you think martial arts, you sort of imagine that a physically weaker but better coordinated and trained fighter should be able to do Bad Things to an opponent who's slow on his feet. Unfortunately, the design of Trip and Grapple in D&D doesn't allow for that at all--if you are low on strength, forget tripping or grappling *anybody*. And if you are small *and* low on strength, you're going to need to not only max out escape artist but also get magical aids to survive grapples. (Ow.)</p><p></p><p>For a while, my monk (who has rogue levels to improve her damage output) has been depending on shuriken as her main combat option... which isn't actually too awful when you can manage to get a full round sneak attack off. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Mmm. Flurry of Blows.</p><p></p><p>And when the half-orc monk in the party grapples somebody, my character can also join in the fun quite happily and turn the opponent into paste.</p><p></p><p>But in a straight fight, it's very very rough, even with dodge, mobility, spring attack, and combat expertise. And even with other party members to distract the opponent.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Anax, post: 1873624, member: 19868"] You might want to take a look at this, although it's more about large-scale combat. :) [url]http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/aow.html[/url] In a one-on-one fight and within the D&D framework, I do think that it depends heavily on the terrain, except for one thing: unless your light fighter has a technique to deal heavy damage on a single strike (for example: Rogue levels for Sneak Attack, or Duelist levels for Precise Strike) or can make ranged attacks, then that fighter is going to be at a disadvantage, as the heavy fighter can always get at least one solid attack off every round that the light fighter dodges in to attack. Sadly, I have to say that while the *right* thing for the mobile fighter to do here is trip attacks or grapple attacks, that probably won't work well--these are heavily focused on strength. Even if the heavy fighter hasn't neglected to take Improved Grapple or the like in a defensive capacity, things still aren't great for the light fighter. He can close in and force the heavy fighter to give up his heavy weapon, but the better strength and armor is still going to cause trouble. I do think that monks are the best choice for taking on fighters, though, specifically because they don't lose much in a grapple. Unlike the fighter, who must switch to a secondary weapon and lose damage output during a grapple, the monk can keep using her unarmed strikes at full power. On the down side, a monk's flurry of blows cannot be used for grappling. So this all comes down to whether the monk's better damage beats the fighter's better attack rolls. So, in short: A monk (who, while a "light fighter" type, should put a pretty good amount of stats in strength) is the type most likely to take a normal fighter in an even fight. In a fight with interesting terrain (and to be honest, most fights should have *some* sort of interesting terrain), a duelist or a fighter/rogue may be able to do enough damage during each attack doding in to keep things interesting. But in general, a heavily armed and armored fighter is going to beat a lightly armed and armored fighter if they find themselves fighting each other for some reason, unless the heavily armed and armored fighter has neglected his study of tactics and is actually a Barbarian in disguise. As for why light infantry beats heavy infantry in that URL I mentioned: That would be because what they describe as light infantry is *archers*. And I think that with infantry in D&D that's an important rock-paper-scissors cycle: heavy infantry beats light infantry, light infantry beats archers, archers beat heavy infantry. And light infantry (especially the sorts who get special bonus damage amounts) can be very seriously deadly if they are fighting together with heavy infantry. Now, on to gripes and moans: Right now, my primary character is a halfling monk with 10 strength and 20 dexterity. And let me tell you--this is a *really* difficult path to take. When you think martial arts, you sort of imagine that a physically weaker but better coordinated and trained fighter should be able to do Bad Things to an opponent who's slow on his feet. Unfortunately, the design of Trip and Grapple in D&D doesn't allow for that at all--if you are low on strength, forget tripping or grappling *anybody*. And if you are small *and* low on strength, you're going to need to not only max out escape artist but also get magical aids to survive grapples. (Ow.) For a while, my monk (who has rogue levels to improve her damage output) has been depending on shuriken as her main combat option... which isn't actually too awful when you can manage to get a full round sneak attack off. :) Mmm. Flurry of Blows. And when the half-orc monk in the party grapples somebody, my character can also join in the fun quite happily and turn the opponent into paste. But in a straight fight, it's very very rough, even with dodge, mobility, spring attack, and combat expertise. And even with other party members to distract the opponent. [/QUOTE]
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