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<blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 5108197" data-attributes="member: 710"><p>This is a great idea and I hope you gather a lot of useful information.</p><p></p><p>Here are my 2 cents: </p><p></p><p>One fundamental issue I have with several adventures is that there are too many combat encounters following each others, without any elements that really advance the plot in some way. The only advancement seems to be having one less combat encounter before the conclusion of the adventure, but story-wise, not much happened. </p><p></p><p>If you have a more or less defined plot going on like "stop Kalarel from opening the portal to the Shadowfell", the plot should be more involved. There should be more "stages" in the story, more twists, more surprises, more color. Looking at KotS (spoilers to follow)</p><p>[sblock]</p><p>- The Kobolds are working for Kalarel. Why? Is it just Irontooth? Is there a way to persuade them "rebelling" against him. When I DMed KotS, I probably didn't do enough, but one thing I was using were "cut scenes"- the PCs getting visions of the past, and seeing how Sir Keegan fought a Dragon (the Dragon buried at the Burial Site), and later offered his Kobold aides survival if they accepted his rule and would never fight against the humans here again. The Kobolds broke this promise. In my game, this was mostly a good justification to bring the full PCs wrath against them, but maybe one could do more with that. </p><p></p><p>- The Dragon Burial Site. What was the item that Kalarel was looking for? What did he need it for. How does withholding the item from him change his plans? How does he react to that?</p><p></p><p>- The Goblin and Hogboblin in the Keep? Could they be in some kind of conflict? Maybe the Goblins have always been there, and now the Hobgoblins are taking over? Bring some politics into it, and give hooks how to use them. Maybe Splug could describe this. He was probably well-liked in his role by many, but maybe he could also advance the plot a little more, like describing the politics of the situation? </p><p></p><p>- The Undead. Tie them stronger to the history of the Keep. In my game, the visions described Keegan's "career", starting with his initial fight of the Dragon, over his family moving in with him in the Keep, to his eventual turning and murdering his own family. So some of the undead could be his family or people from the vision. Even if you'd eschew the visions, seing several child skeletons or spirits. "Daddy, why are you looking so angry? Father, what are you doing with the sword! No aaaahh...". This could also make the final meeting with Keegan a lot more tense - how do the PCs react to his fall, after seeing more "personal" consequences of his actions?</p><p></p><p>- Nianaran. She should take a more active role in the plot. As it is, the Pcs have seen her once, did not make anything of it, and later she attacks them at the cemetery. Her betrayal could be a lot more powerful if the PCs already had a connection with her - for example, she could come to their aid when they are fending off the Kobolds (she only appears when the fight is essentially won), and seems to give useful tips (that only lead them into the Kobold ambush maybe?). </p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>Probably at least every 2 encounters something "plotty" or "roleplayingy" should happen. A new information unveiled. A clue found. A betrayal. A misinformation. Meeting an important or useful figure. A decision that has to be made (beyond the usual "turn left or right?" or "extended rest or go on"). A puzzle to be solved. </p><p></p><p>If you look at the next adventure, Thunderspire Labrynth: </p><p>[sblock]</p><p>Fighting the Blood Reavers (?) in their fortress. What plot advancement is going on there? I see no puzzles, no surprises, no new revelations, except at the end when you are lead by your nose to the next dungeon.</p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>Or Pyramid of Shadows: </p><p>[sblock]</p><p>Essentially, the entire pyramid is a dungeon where you just kill a lot of monsters and occassionally fight a "mini-boss". You <em>can</em> play it differently. You can try to make allies. But it seems every one of them will betray you anyway. Also, the pyramid is way too static. What happens if the PCs attack those plant creatures in one room and then retreat? How do they reinforce their troops? Do they go after the PCs? How?</p><p></p><p>That's the adventure I am currently running and I am looking forward to coming to its end. The players seem to have fun, but my group is generally not really that story-focused and more "tactical roleplayers". But I am sure they wouldn't mind more story, more "dungeon politics". </p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>D&D 4 is great with encounters as set pieces. But there is a danger to make them too static. How do I handle the villains reorganizing their defenses? Monsters from the inner areas might move to the outer areas to intercept the PCs. How can I ensure that these encounters stay interesting if I did that? I can do this mostly on the fly, but it might help if the adventures considered this more and had more advice in that regard.</p><p></p><p>The delve encounter format is, BTW, great for the "set piece" style of encounters. But once you diverge from it, it becomes less helpful. Also, it is harder to connect the dots in the adventure when you break out encounters. The general structure of the adventure should be written in a way that I still have all crucial information without having to open the encounter parts - and it should contain enough "meat" so that all the encounters are well connected with plot elements. </p><p>What monsters are there in the encounter later (important: Which monster is which NPC? Sometimes I couldn't figure this out from the stat blocks!) What do I find for treasure? How do I describe the area? Some information will need repetition. That might increase the page and word count, which might increase the price, too. But I guess that's something we'll have to live with.</p><p></p><p>Generally speaking, 25 encounters / 3 levels for relatively simple plot as in Keep of the Shadowfell or Pyramid of Shadows is too much. </p><p></p><p>I haven't looked at the Chaos Scar adventures much (I generally hesitate from reading adventures unless I absolutely want to DM them, since I might play in them), but basically these seem to go more in the direction of a "sandbox". What I said above might not entirely apply to them. A more or less fixed plot doesn't seem to fix the, as the PCs have probably too much freedom to go into any direction and have less pressure to follow a certain plotline. </p><p>But you should probably ensure there are enough things connecting otherwise individual adventures together, and avoid making the individual one too long. Maybe two villains in different "lairs" are exchanging letters, or several adventures involve the thieve's guild. There doesn't need to be a plot in the sense of "the guild wants to take over the country, by using X, Y, Z, and you have to do A, B C to stop them", but there might be a "plot" developing naturally like "the PCs hate these guys and want to go against them. Which adventure did describe the Thief guilds hideout again?" or "The PCs cooperate with these guys so often, how can they become a member again?" </p><p>These connections are needed to spice up string of encounters. Every 2 or 3 encounters might create a new connection (or create a twist or reveal information within the current events).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mustrum_Ridcully, post: 5108197, member: 710"] This is a great idea and I hope you gather a lot of useful information. Here are my 2 cents: One fundamental issue I have with several adventures is that there are too many combat encounters following each others, without any elements that really advance the plot in some way. The only advancement seems to be having one less combat encounter before the conclusion of the adventure, but story-wise, not much happened. If you have a more or less defined plot going on like "stop Kalarel from opening the portal to the Shadowfell", the plot should be more involved. There should be more "stages" in the story, more twists, more surprises, more color. Looking at KotS (spoilers to follow) [sblock] - The Kobolds are working for Kalarel. Why? Is it just Irontooth? Is there a way to persuade them "rebelling" against him. When I DMed KotS, I probably didn't do enough, but one thing I was using were "cut scenes"- the PCs getting visions of the past, and seeing how Sir Keegan fought a Dragon (the Dragon buried at the Burial Site), and later offered his Kobold aides survival if they accepted his rule and would never fight against the humans here again. The Kobolds broke this promise. In my game, this was mostly a good justification to bring the full PCs wrath against them, but maybe one could do more with that. - The Dragon Burial Site. What was the item that Kalarel was looking for? What did he need it for. How does withholding the item from him change his plans? How does he react to that? - The Goblin and Hogboblin in the Keep? Could they be in some kind of conflict? Maybe the Goblins have always been there, and now the Hobgoblins are taking over? Bring some politics into it, and give hooks how to use them. Maybe Splug could describe this. He was probably well-liked in his role by many, but maybe he could also advance the plot a little more, like describing the politics of the situation? - The Undead. Tie them stronger to the history of the Keep. In my game, the visions described Keegan's "career", starting with his initial fight of the Dragon, over his family moving in with him in the Keep, to his eventual turning and murdering his own family. So some of the undead could be his family or people from the vision. Even if you'd eschew the visions, seing several child skeletons or spirits. "Daddy, why are you looking so angry? Father, what are you doing with the sword! No aaaahh...". This could also make the final meeting with Keegan a lot more tense - how do the PCs react to his fall, after seeing more "personal" consequences of his actions? - Nianaran. She should take a more active role in the plot. As it is, the Pcs have seen her once, did not make anything of it, and later she attacks them at the cemetery. Her betrayal could be a lot more powerful if the PCs already had a connection with her - for example, she could come to their aid when they are fending off the Kobolds (she only appears when the fight is essentially won), and seems to give useful tips (that only lead them into the Kobold ambush maybe?). [/sblock] Probably at least every 2 encounters something "plotty" or "roleplayingy" should happen. A new information unveiled. A clue found. A betrayal. A misinformation. Meeting an important or useful figure. A decision that has to be made (beyond the usual "turn left or right?" or "extended rest or go on"). A puzzle to be solved. If you look at the next adventure, Thunderspire Labrynth: [sblock] Fighting the Blood Reavers (?) in their fortress. What plot advancement is going on there? I see no puzzles, no surprises, no new revelations, except at the end when you are lead by your nose to the next dungeon. [/sblock] Or Pyramid of Shadows: [sblock] Essentially, the entire pyramid is a dungeon where you just kill a lot of monsters and occassionally fight a "mini-boss". You [I]can[/I] play it differently. You can try to make allies. But it seems every one of them will betray you anyway. Also, the pyramid is way too static. What happens if the PCs attack those plant creatures in one room and then retreat? How do they reinforce their troops? Do they go after the PCs? How? That's the adventure I am currently running and I am looking forward to coming to its end. The players seem to have fun, but my group is generally not really that story-focused and more "tactical roleplayers". But I am sure they wouldn't mind more story, more "dungeon politics". [/sblock] D&D 4 is great with encounters as set pieces. But there is a danger to make them too static. How do I handle the villains reorganizing their defenses? Monsters from the inner areas might move to the outer areas to intercept the PCs. How can I ensure that these encounters stay interesting if I did that? I can do this mostly on the fly, but it might help if the adventures considered this more and had more advice in that regard. The delve encounter format is, BTW, great for the "set piece" style of encounters. But once you diverge from it, it becomes less helpful. Also, it is harder to connect the dots in the adventure when you break out encounters. The general structure of the adventure should be written in a way that I still have all crucial information without having to open the encounter parts - and it should contain enough "meat" so that all the encounters are well connected with plot elements. What monsters are there in the encounter later (important: Which monster is which NPC? Sometimes I couldn't figure this out from the stat blocks!) What do I find for treasure? How do I describe the area? Some information will need repetition. That might increase the page and word count, which might increase the price, too. But I guess that's something we'll have to live with. Generally speaking, 25 encounters / 3 levels for relatively simple plot as in Keep of the Shadowfell or Pyramid of Shadows is too much. I haven't looked at the Chaos Scar adventures much (I generally hesitate from reading adventures unless I absolutely want to DM them, since I might play in them), but basically these seem to go more in the direction of a "sandbox". What I said above might not entirely apply to them. A more or less fixed plot doesn't seem to fix the, as the PCs have probably too much freedom to go into any direction and have less pressure to follow a certain plotline. But you should probably ensure there are enough things connecting otherwise individual adventures together, and avoid making the individual one too long. Maybe two villains in different "lairs" are exchanging letters, or several adventures involve the thieve's guild. There doesn't need to be a plot in the sense of "the guild wants to take over the country, by using X, Y, Z, and you have to do A, B C to stop them", but there might be a "plot" developing naturally like "the PCs hate these guys and want to go against them. Which adventure did describe the Thief guilds hideout again?" or "The PCs cooperate with these guys so often, how can they become a member again?" These connections are needed to spice up string of encounters. Every 2 or 3 encounters might create a new connection (or create a twist or reveal information within the current events). [/QUOTE]
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