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Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.
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<blockquote data-quote="ktkenshinx" data-source="post: 6995372" data-attributes="member: 6785159"><p>There is no contradiction here. The weakness is that you can't fight large (>2) groups of enemies using grappling. This isn't a limitation of, say, a greatsword or a two-weapon fighter, who can engage 3+ opponents simultaneously. The strength is that you can at least fight 2 enemies and you can do so very well, which wasn't possible under the rules of earlier editions. This makes plenty of sense in fantasy worlds and heroic games like D&D. If average human strength is 10 in the real world and most people are level 1, it is totally logical that a level 10 half-orc with 18+ strength would be more than capable of grappling two people using his hands to grab and then his body/legs/head to do the rest. </p><p></p><p>Even ignoring the game rules, this actually happens in real life, not in games. You see strong guys grab the lapel/collar of one opponent with his left hand, one opponent with his right hand, and then drag them around or throw them to the ground. I've seen this happen in and outside of gyms, particularly when the initiating grappler is trained/larger and the people being grappled are untrained/smaller. This reinforces that the rules are just replicating an out-of-game reality. </p><p></p><p>Players would be justifiably upset if a DM made an unrealistic call, saying you can't grapple two people. As someone who grapples, knows grapplers, and has seen grapplers in action, it is entirely possible to control two opponents in this manner, especially with a strength and skill difference between the grappler and the grappled. </p><p></p><p>If anything, your point underlies a separate problem of D&D, which is that many possible real-life scenarios and options get shot down by DMs who personally don't believe they are possible. That's problematic from a game consistency perspective (because those scenarios are definitely possible in the real world) and from a rules perpective (because the rules allow it).</p><p></p><p>I 100% agree with you that some inconsistencies and loopholes are problematic. But this isn't one of them and actually undercuts your argument/helps to prove a counter-argument about shortcomings in DM adjudication.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ktkenshinx, post: 6995372, member: 6785159"] There is no contradiction here. The weakness is that you can't fight large (>2) groups of enemies using grappling. This isn't a limitation of, say, a greatsword or a two-weapon fighter, who can engage 3+ opponents simultaneously. The strength is that you can at least fight 2 enemies and you can do so very well, which wasn't possible under the rules of earlier editions. This makes plenty of sense in fantasy worlds and heroic games like D&D. If average human strength is 10 in the real world and most people are level 1, it is totally logical that a level 10 half-orc with 18+ strength would be more than capable of grappling two people using his hands to grab and then his body/legs/head to do the rest. Even ignoring the game rules, this actually happens in real life, not in games. You see strong guys grab the lapel/collar of one opponent with his left hand, one opponent with his right hand, and then drag them around or throw them to the ground. I've seen this happen in and outside of gyms, particularly when the initiating grappler is trained/larger and the people being grappled are untrained/smaller. This reinforces that the rules are just replicating an out-of-game reality. Players would be justifiably upset if a DM made an unrealistic call, saying you can't grapple two people. As someone who grapples, knows grapplers, and has seen grapplers in action, it is entirely possible to control two opponents in this manner, especially with a strength and skill difference between the grappler and the grappled. If anything, your point underlies a separate problem of D&D, which is that many possible real-life scenarios and options get shot down by DMs who personally don't believe they are possible. That's problematic from a game consistency perspective (because those scenarios are definitely possible in the real world) and from a rules perpective (because the rules allow it). I 100% agree with you that some inconsistencies and loopholes are problematic. But this isn't one of them and actually undercuts your argument/helps to prove a counter-argument about shortcomings in DM adjudication. [/QUOTE]
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Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.
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