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<blockquote data-quote="The 1 and the Prime" data-source="post: 5639262" data-attributes="member: 91434"><p>Well, ok, relatively minor point here, but </p><p></p><p><Neckbeard></p><p>Technically, in any ideological conflict the opposition can be considered "heresy" by a group with an orthodoxy. This definition can be taken from a strict literal interpretation of a dictionary entry like <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heresy" target="_blank">this one</a>.</p><p></p><p>For example, if the OP agrees with Celebrim's definition of the word in this discussion, my view could be a heresy since a group (of at least two people) have a set belief (an orthodoxy) I disagree with under this expansive literal dictionary reading.</p><p></p><p>However, I do not believe this expansive definition of heresy is what the OP was asking about. Indeed, one needs a lot of English language context to understand that the set of Heresy is a strict subset of {two religious opinions held by three or more people}. </p><p></p><p>Heresy is usually held as distinct from either <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy" target="_blank">Apostasy</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy" target="_blank">Blasphemy</a>. Blasphemy and encouraging Apostasy is probably the most app description of religious conflict in Ancient World polytheism. Apostasy is the leaving of one religion in favor of another. Blasphemy is the purposeful insult to the reputation of a cult (like pooping on their altar or some such and challenging their deity to do something about it). The cult of Apollo was a completely different religion from that of the cult of Sol or Helios or Phoebus, and elevating Apollo as the superior sun-god was blasphemous to the prior cults. These were not modifications of an existing religion, they were rejections of that religion and efforts at replacement. It was mainly feared that adherents of other religions (including Apostates) would probably Blaspheme as a result of being in these other religions. This is not heresy. Heretics believe they are supporting the religion claimed by orthodoxy and in fact a heretic would probably join with the orthodox in suppressing anything they saw as insulting to the reputation of their mutual deity. </p><p></p><p>However, religious competition was still less absolute: an individual had a portfolio of deities and superstitions which they subscribed to. Turning away from a subset of that portfolio in favor of some other (new) deities is apostolic, not heretical, despite retaining beliefs in other "spheres" (in D&D parlance). Saying Apollo was the chief sun god had nothing to do with whether Jove was boss, and you were not blaspheming against Jove when you switched from Sol to Apollo. The ancient Romans were turning away from Sol in favor of Apollo, Apollo was not a sect of Sol. The Aesir-Vanir War is an example of a case where blaspheming was happening at one time and apostasy was being encouraged (probably on both sides, but mainly from Vanir to Aesir initially) but resulted in a sycretism of the two pantheons after they agree to stop blaspheming eachother. The Titanomachy represents a more successful replacement of an older pantheon, although even here the old deities remain active in the belief system (and many demi-powers like Nyx are maintained from earlier beliefs systems). </p><p></p><p>Indeed, classifying a dispute like whether Hestia or Dionysus is a true member of the core 12 Olympians would be difficult. This could be considered a heresy insomuch as the Pantheon represents a "religion" (and not a collection of loosely connected belief systems), but really the cults of Hestia and Dionysus were pretty much separate. You go, pay your tribute to one, and then maybe to the other one too. It was a minor point as to who had a seat at the big table in the sky. Hestia (a deity of propriety and orderliness) was opposed in theory to Dionysus (a deity of debauchery and excess), but in truth they probably fed off each other, with devotees of one driving the people around them to give offering to the other one. So this relationship was not necessarily completely hostile (although it could be argued by a supporter of Hestia that her exclusion in favor of Dionysus would be blasphemous, but that'd be pretty indecorous for a supporter of a deity of decorum). </p><p></p><p>Dionysus was probably the newer deity to the Greeks (coming only with the introduction of fermentation) and initially people who sacrificed to him could have been accused of "withdrawing away" (which is a literal translation of <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apostasy" target="_blank">apostasy</a> from the old Greek) from their old gods in favor of a new foreign god. </p><p></p><p>Apostasy is actually what Socrates is accused of as well. He was accused of inventing new divinities for the youth of Athens and turning them away from old ones. This is not a modification of an existing religious orthodoxy, it is a new religion. Enemies of the Roman state system were usually accused of blaspheming the deities of the state cult by not offering them the proper sacrifices (it's not like the Jews were saying "No, we'll sacrifice to Jove, but only in the correct proper way," they were rejecting Roman religion completely in favor of their own deity).</p><p></Neckbeard></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The 1 and the Prime, post: 5639262, member: 91434"] Well, ok, relatively minor point here, but <Neckbeard> Technically, in any ideological conflict the opposition can be considered "heresy" by a group with an orthodoxy. This definition can be taken from a strict literal interpretation of a dictionary entry like [URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heresy"]this one[/URL]. For example, if the OP agrees with Celebrim's definition of the word in this discussion, my view could be a heresy since a group (of at least two people) have a set belief (an orthodoxy) I disagree with under this expansive literal dictionary reading. However, I do not believe this expansive definition of heresy is what the OP was asking about. Indeed, one needs a lot of English language context to understand that the set of Heresy is a strict subset of {two religious opinions held by three or more people}. Heresy is usually held as distinct from either [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy"]Apostasy[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy"]Blasphemy[/URL]. Blasphemy and encouraging Apostasy is probably the most app description of religious conflict in Ancient World polytheism. Apostasy is the leaving of one religion in favor of another. Blasphemy is the purposeful insult to the reputation of a cult (like pooping on their altar or some such and challenging their deity to do something about it). The cult of Apollo was a completely different religion from that of the cult of Sol or Helios or Phoebus, and elevating Apollo as the superior sun-god was blasphemous to the prior cults. These were not modifications of an existing religion, they were rejections of that religion and efforts at replacement. It was mainly feared that adherents of other religions (including Apostates) would probably Blaspheme as a result of being in these other religions. This is not heresy. Heretics believe they are supporting the religion claimed by orthodoxy and in fact a heretic would probably join with the orthodox in suppressing anything they saw as insulting to the reputation of their mutual deity. However, religious competition was still less absolute: an individual had a portfolio of deities and superstitions which they subscribed to. Turning away from a subset of that portfolio in favor of some other (new) deities is apostolic, not heretical, despite retaining beliefs in other "spheres" (in D&D parlance). Saying Apollo was the chief sun god had nothing to do with whether Jove was boss, and you were not blaspheming against Jove when you switched from Sol to Apollo. The ancient Romans were turning away from Sol in favor of Apollo, Apollo was not a sect of Sol. The Aesir-Vanir War is an example of a case where blaspheming was happening at one time and apostasy was being encouraged (probably on both sides, but mainly from Vanir to Aesir initially) but resulted in a sycretism of the two pantheons after they agree to stop blaspheming eachother. The Titanomachy represents a more successful replacement of an older pantheon, although even here the old deities remain active in the belief system (and many demi-powers like Nyx are maintained from earlier beliefs systems). Indeed, classifying a dispute like whether Hestia or Dionysus is a true member of the core 12 Olympians would be difficult. This could be considered a heresy insomuch as the Pantheon represents a "religion" (and not a collection of loosely connected belief systems), but really the cults of Hestia and Dionysus were pretty much separate. You go, pay your tribute to one, and then maybe to the other one too. It was a minor point as to who had a seat at the big table in the sky. Hestia (a deity of propriety and orderliness) was opposed in theory to Dionysus (a deity of debauchery and excess), but in truth they probably fed off each other, with devotees of one driving the people around them to give offering to the other one. So this relationship was not necessarily completely hostile (although it could be argued by a supporter of Hestia that her exclusion in favor of Dionysus would be blasphemous, but that'd be pretty indecorous for a supporter of a deity of decorum). Dionysus was probably the newer deity to the Greeks (coming only with the introduction of fermentation) and initially people who sacrificed to him could have been accused of "withdrawing away" (which is a literal translation of [URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apostasy"]apostasy[/URL] from the old Greek) from their old gods in favor of a new foreign god. Apostasy is actually what Socrates is accused of as well. He was accused of inventing new divinities for the youth of Athens and turning them away from old ones. This is not a modification of an existing religious orthodoxy, it is a new religion. Enemies of the Roman state system were usually accused of blaspheming the deities of the state cult by not offering them the proper sacrifices (it's not like the Jews were saying "No, we'll sacrifice to Jove, but only in the correct proper way," they were rejecting Roman religion completely in favor of their own deity). </Neckbeard> [/QUOTE]
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