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"HF" vs. "S&S" gaming: the underlying reason of conflict and change in D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Doug McCrae" data-source="post: 4818986" data-attributes="member: 21169"><p>I think you might be on to something here but your terminology is wrong. Old school D&D doesn't particularly resemble classic sword & sorcery fiction. I don't remember Conan dying from a poison spider bite in the first story, then being reincarnated as a dryad. Also you're very wrong about the death rate in 3e, the rules don't assume all encounters will be balanced, that's a misinterpretation, and death is quite likely even when they are. Though 3e and 4e both assume the PCs will be good guys, they don't assume they will win, or die a heroic death at the 'right time'.</p><p></p><p>d20 D&D PCs are mechanically complex, unlike earlier editions. Assumptions in rpgs have changed since the 70s, PCs are more interesting now both mechanically and in terms of back story and personality. So if they die it's a big problem, unlike in old school play. Unfortunately under the 3e rules they die quite frequently. 4e makes death less likely. But it doesn't guarantee success, so even the 4e rules don't support the telling of a story where the good guys win.</p><p></p><p>You are right to make a distinction between 'karmic gaming universes' where the good guys are certain to win, and non-karmic. But you can't really tie non-karmic to S&S, as the protagonists win in S&S just as often as the protagonists in HF, and they're still much more sympathetic than the bad guys, just not as altruistic as the HF heroes. And 3e and 4e aren't karmic by the rules, that requires GM fudging in every edition. In fact it was probably most strongly encouraged in 2e.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Doug McCrae, post: 4818986, member: 21169"] I think you might be on to something here but your terminology is wrong. Old school D&D doesn't particularly resemble classic sword & sorcery fiction. I don't remember Conan dying from a poison spider bite in the first story, then being reincarnated as a dryad. Also you're very wrong about the death rate in 3e, the rules don't assume all encounters will be balanced, that's a misinterpretation, and death is quite likely even when they are. Though 3e and 4e both assume the PCs will be good guys, they don't assume they will win, or die a heroic death at the 'right time'. d20 D&D PCs are mechanically complex, unlike earlier editions. Assumptions in rpgs have changed since the 70s, PCs are more interesting now both mechanically and in terms of back story and personality. So if they die it's a big problem, unlike in old school play. Unfortunately under the 3e rules they die quite frequently. 4e makes death less likely. But it doesn't guarantee success, so even the 4e rules don't support the telling of a story where the good guys win. You are right to make a distinction between 'karmic gaming universes' where the good guys are certain to win, and non-karmic. But you can't really tie non-karmic to S&S, as the protagonists win in S&S just as often as the protagonists in HF, and they're still much more sympathetic than the bad guys, just not as altruistic as the HF heroes. And 3e and 4e aren't karmic by the rules, that requires GM fudging in every edition. In fact it was probably most strongly encouraged in 2e. [/QUOTE]
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"HF" vs. "S&S" gaming: the underlying reason of conflict and change in D&D
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