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"HF" vs. "S&S" gaming: the underlying reason of conflict and change in D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Zulgyan" data-source="post: 4819498" data-attributes="member: 18785"><p>Very good posts all round folks, even those I don't agree on.</p><p></p><p>Some quick clarifications because I'm a bit hurried. I run the risk of beign unclear, but hey.</p><p></p><p>1) I don't wish to be controversial. I want, if posible, end with the old school vs. new school conflict and take the discussion a bit higher conceptually, and see where all the controversy comes from.</p><p></p><p>2) There are some obvious difference bewteen how literature and gaming work. To keep the article shot, I just focused on the similarities. </p><p></p><p>3) Conan wins against all odds because he is a literary protagonist, no doubt. But the novels constantly stress that it's all about his own skill, resourcefulness and luck, with no intervention from a Christian-like god how wants good to win over evil. His story is a "success story" that had no guarantees of being that way - that's how the author presents the world. An uncaring, amoral universe. Conan wins because he is strong, not because he is good. </p><p></p><p>That can be recreated in gaming, by reducing DM intervention to "keep the story right" and by reducing the system elements that control plot: balanced encounters (even though it might be a misinterpretation of the rules, it is one misinterpretation that is quite widespread), treasure prescriptions, linear adventure design, etc.. If you take distance from story manipulation and you reduce player entitlement, and you just let the players alone with no DM or system help, struggling against a hostile world: the end result will <em>feel </em>much more like a S&S novel. All their success will be self gained. </p><p></p><p>But don't take this to the extreme of course, we are talking about just an guiding principle that can have it's exceptions. </p><p></p><p>2) In S&S literature you have <strong>g</strong>ods with minuscule, not the judeo-cristian <strong>G</strong>od that has a plan of salvation where good will triumph over evil. S&S gods are just superpowerful beings, that commit mistakes, have character flaws, and fight each other to control the world, not to redeem it. And they are not responsible for it's creation either. So they are not really gods the way most modern theology and philosophy interpret it. That's why I used the word atheism, that might have been confusing. But remember that Howard was himself an atheist, and the <strong>g</strong>ods from his novels are a criticism to theism in a symbolical way, because the are either evil or unhelpful. </p><p></p><p>3) The cleric class is confusing, but you can interpret their gods as just a powerful beings who can squish vancian spells into your brain.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zulgyan, post: 4819498, member: 18785"] Very good posts all round folks, even those I don't agree on. Some quick clarifications because I'm a bit hurried. I run the risk of beign unclear, but hey. 1) I don't wish to be controversial. I want, if posible, end with the old school vs. new school conflict and take the discussion a bit higher conceptually, and see where all the controversy comes from. 2) There are some obvious difference bewteen how literature and gaming work. To keep the article shot, I just focused on the similarities. 3) Conan wins against all odds because he is a literary protagonist, no doubt. But the novels constantly stress that it's all about his own skill, resourcefulness and luck, with no intervention from a Christian-like god how wants good to win over evil. His story is a "success story" that had no guarantees of being that way - that's how the author presents the world. An uncaring, amoral universe. Conan wins because he is strong, not because he is good. That can be recreated in gaming, by reducing DM intervention to "keep the story right" and by reducing the system elements that control plot: balanced encounters (even though it might be a misinterpretation of the rules, it is one misinterpretation that is quite widespread), treasure prescriptions, linear adventure design, etc.. If you take distance from story manipulation and you reduce player entitlement, and you just let the players alone with no DM or system help, struggling against a hostile world: the end result will [I]feel [/I]much more like a S&S novel. All their success will be self gained. But don't take this to the extreme of course, we are talking about just an guiding principle that can have it's exceptions. 2) In S&S literature you have [B]g[/B]ods with minuscule, not the judeo-cristian [B]G[/B]od that has a plan of salvation where good will triumph over evil. S&S gods are just superpowerful beings, that commit mistakes, have character flaws, and fight each other to control the world, not to redeem it. And they are not responsible for it's creation either. So they are not really gods the way most modern theology and philosophy interpret it. That's why I used the word atheism, that might have been confusing. But remember that Howard was himself an atheist, and the [B]g[/B]ods from his novels are a criticism to theism in a symbolical way, because the are either evil or unhelpful. 3) The cleric class is confusing, but you can interpret their gods as just a powerful beings who can squish vancian spells into your brain. [/QUOTE]
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