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High-Level Play: Nightmare for DMs?
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<blockquote data-quote="hong" data-source="post: 1684810" data-attributes="member: 537"><p>The fighter cannot dish out 200+ points of damage all day, any more than the wizard can cast instakill spells all day. This is one of the more common mistakes that people make. It doesn't matter how tough the fighter is, he's going to have to stop sometime -- if only because his pals have to stop, which means that means he has to stop too. Splitting the party is as dumb at high levels as it is at low, and one guy cannot solo the dungeon.</p><p></p><p>Therefore, just because the wizard can cast broken stuff once per day is not counterbalanced by the fighter being able to dish out 200+ points of damage all day. Heck, even if the fighter _could_ dish out 200+ points of damage all day, that doesn't justify giving anyone a magic kill-the-BBEG ability. And it's not like the wiz is impotent in all those other fights leading up to the BBEG either; the number of spells they can cast per day is huge, and even with Quicken Spell, they can't possibly chew through them all in one battle.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which basically means they deal more damage. It doesn't change the basic parameters of the game the way true resurrect, wish, miracle, gate, astral spell, teleport circle, etc. can.</p><p></p><p>Hint: nobody ever complained about meteor swarm.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Whose utility is highly dependent on the quality of the feats they get, and as matters stand, there's a real lack of good high-level feats.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hint 2: plot device spells are not limited to wizards.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That sort of monk is talked about more often than seen. More usually, monks are highly specialised support players. They very rarely kick butt and take names the way fighters, clerics and wizards do.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And just as often hiding to avoid getting whacked in return, or having to deal with non-crittable things. Have I mentioned yet that more damage doesn't change the parameters of the game?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Have I mentioned yet that more damage doesn't change the parameters of the game?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Irrelevant. Using up resources encompasses a greater range of things than just feats and sneak attacks.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>At high levels, you'll very often be fighting one battle and then resting, because half the party is close to dead, or their special abilities (from items, if necessary) have run out, or both. Spells are just one dimension of a party's total resources. Further, answering "the rules are hard to use" with "a smart DM can make anything work" is stupid.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>At high levels, mobility magic is common enough that PCs can often choose the time of combat as they please.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Disjunction can be cast on fighters just as easily as wizards.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Of course, you could just ban the spell and save the trouble of having to think about it.</p><p></p><p>Roleplaying is not an exercise in self-improvement. If something is a pain to deal with, then it's perfectly reasonable to excise it and get on with the fun stuff.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Exactly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hint 3: look up the caster level of your typical dragon, vs an equivalent EL wizard.</p><p></p><p>Hint 4: not every encounter involves something that can cast greater dispel. Saying that every encounter should be like this is a tacit admission that the thing to be dispelled is too good to leave unchecked.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, it's a problem with the rock-paper-scissors aspect of D&D, which is not something that a DM should have to contend with when designing appropriate encounters. Certainly not to the extent that a lot of 9th level spells demand it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why should every encounter require an NPC wizard to deal with one pissy spell?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And it would be a much, much better game if these counters weren't so specific to individual classes, which mandates a contrived approach to designing encounters.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So ban the high level stuff. You're Allowed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>... or the DM could just ban the cheese. You're Allowed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Poppycock. The DM of a high level game is required to do exactly what would provide them and their group with the most fun. Excessive amounts of homework to find obscure broken things does not constitute "fun" for a lot of people.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And is there something wrong with making that task easier?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hong, post: 1684810, member: 537"] The fighter cannot dish out 200+ points of damage all day, any more than the wizard can cast instakill spells all day. This is one of the more common mistakes that people make. It doesn't matter how tough the fighter is, he's going to have to stop sometime -- if only because his pals have to stop, which means that means he has to stop too. Splitting the party is as dumb at high levels as it is at low, and one guy cannot solo the dungeon. Therefore, just because the wizard can cast broken stuff once per day is not counterbalanced by the fighter being able to dish out 200+ points of damage all day. Heck, even if the fighter _could_ dish out 200+ points of damage all day, that doesn't justify giving anyone a magic kill-the-BBEG ability. And it's not like the wiz is impotent in all those other fights leading up to the BBEG either; the number of spells they can cast per day is huge, and even with Quicken Spell, they can't possibly chew through them all in one battle. Which basically means they deal more damage. It doesn't change the basic parameters of the game the way true resurrect, wish, miracle, gate, astral spell, teleport circle, etc. can. Hint: nobody ever complained about meteor swarm. Whose utility is highly dependent on the quality of the feats they get, and as matters stand, there's a real lack of good high-level feats. Hint 2: plot device spells are not limited to wizards. That sort of monk is talked about more often than seen. More usually, monks are highly specialised support players. They very rarely kick butt and take names the way fighters, clerics and wizards do. And just as often hiding to avoid getting whacked in return, or having to deal with non-crittable things. Have I mentioned yet that more damage doesn't change the parameters of the game? Have I mentioned yet that more damage doesn't change the parameters of the game? Irrelevant. Using up resources encompasses a greater range of things than just feats and sneak attacks. At high levels, you'll very often be fighting one battle and then resting, because half the party is close to dead, or their special abilities (from items, if necessary) have run out, or both. Spells are just one dimension of a party's total resources. Further, answering "the rules are hard to use" with "a smart DM can make anything work" is stupid. At high levels, mobility magic is common enough that PCs can often choose the time of combat as they please. Disjunction can be cast on fighters just as easily as wizards. Of course, you could just ban the spell and save the trouble of having to think about it. Roleplaying is not an exercise in self-improvement. If something is a pain to deal with, then it's perfectly reasonable to excise it and get on with the fun stuff. Exactly. Hint 3: look up the caster level of your typical dragon, vs an equivalent EL wizard. Hint 4: not every encounter involves something that can cast greater dispel. Saying that every encounter should be like this is a tacit admission that the thing to be dispelled is too good to leave unchecked. No, it's a problem with the rock-paper-scissors aspect of D&D, which is not something that a DM should have to contend with when designing appropriate encounters. Certainly not to the extent that a lot of 9th level spells demand it. Why should every encounter require an NPC wizard to deal with one pissy spell? And it would be a much, much better game if these counters weren't so specific to individual classes, which mandates a contrived approach to designing encounters. So ban the high level stuff. You're Allowed. ... or the DM could just ban the cheese. You're Allowed. Poppycock. The DM of a high level game is required to do exactly what would provide them and their group with the most fun. Excessive amounts of homework to find obscure broken things does not constitute "fun" for a lot of people. And? And? And? And is there something wrong with making that task easier? [/QUOTE]
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