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High-Level Play: Nightmare for DMs?
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<blockquote data-quote="rushlight" data-source="post: 1687716" data-attributes="member: 3801"><p>I think there are more ways to keep challenges balanced than you are accounting for. Sure, <em>Gate</em> is powerful. However: first, the players are toying with creatures of far greater power - and that can bring role-playing consequences or even direct retribution (say from a deity who's tired of the PCs getting his most powerful angels killed!). </p><p> </p><p>Second, the XP cost <strong>is</strong> significant. Consider this: with the basic assumptions (4 players in a party, all of whom are 19th level) <em>Gate</em> is generally a bad idea unless it's absolutely nessecary. A CR 19 creature gives 5700 XP, divided by the number of people in the party - that means the caster gets 1425 XP from defeating the monster. If, in the process of defeating the monster, the player casts <em>Gate</em> then he only gains 425 XP from that encounter. If the caster does this every time (which is the assumption here - if the caster only used the spell a single time ever, you wouldn't be calling it broken) then he's dropped his advancement from the standard 13.33 encounters to 44.7 encounters required. It's a dumb wizard who does this, and his use of <em>Gate</em> <strong>will</strong> be painful.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Sorry, Abominations are not Extraplanar creatures, they are Outsiders only - which are forbidden by the <em>Gate</em> spell. Only Extraplanar creatures may be called. (Note that the Solar for example is a Large Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good) creature.) Also, a <em>Gated</em> creature can't be forced to cast <em>Wish.</em> See page 173 of the PHB - summoned creatures can't be forced to spend XP, and it's a simple to see that Called creatures under control of the caller should also fall under this rule. </p><p> </p><p>Second, you can't just <em>Gate</em> in the bad guy. Unless the bad guy in your campaign is a random "balor" from the lower planes. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> If the bad guy is a balor named Joe then that's a unique being - and that too is forbidden by <em>Gate</em>. </p><p> </p><p>I am currently running an epic level game, and honestly, I have never had issues with any of these spells. Can someone give some examples of <em>how</em> these spells have been abused in your game? Or is this simply a case of "well, they <strong>look</strong> broken"?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="rushlight, post: 1687716, member: 3801"] I think there are more ways to keep challenges balanced than you are accounting for. Sure, [i]Gate[/i] is powerful. However: first, the players are toying with creatures of far greater power - and that can bring role-playing consequences or even direct retribution (say from a deity who's tired of the PCs getting his most powerful angels killed!). Second, the XP cost [b]is[/b] significant. Consider this: with the basic assumptions (4 players in a party, all of whom are 19th level) [i]Gate[/i] is generally a bad idea unless it's absolutely nessecary. A CR 19 creature gives 5700 XP, divided by the number of people in the party - that means the caster gets 1425 XP from defeating the monster. If, in the process of defeating the monster, the player casts [i]Gate[/i] then he only gains 425 XP from that encounter. If the caster does this every time (which is the assumption here - if the caster only used the spell a single time ever, you wouldn't be calling it broken) then he's dropped his advancement from the standard 13.33 encounters to 44.7 encounters required. It's a dumb wizard who does this, and his use of [i]Gate[/i] [b]will[/b] be painful. Sorry, Abominations are not Extraplanar creatures, they are Outsiders only - which are forbidden by the [i]Gate[/i] spell. Only Extraplanar creatures may be called. (Note that the Solar for example is a Large Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good) creature.) Also, a [i]Gated[/i] creature can't be forced to cast [i]Wish.[/i] See page 173 of the PHB - summoned creatures can't be forced to spend XP, and it's a simple to see that Called creatures under control of the caller should also fall under this rule. Second, you can't just [i]Gate[/i] in the bad guy. Unless the bad guy in your campaign is a random "balor" from the lower planes. :) If the bad guy is a balor named Joe then that's a unique being - and that too is forbidden by [i]Gate[/i]. I am currently running an epic level game, and honestly, I have never had issues with any of these spells. Can someone give some examples of [i]how[/i] these spells have been abused in your game? Or is this simply a case of "well, they [b]look[/b] broken"? [/QUOTE]
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