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High-Level Play: Nightmare for DMs?
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<blockquote data-quote="Dthamilaye" data-source="post: 1688388" data-attributes="member: 11890"><p>Sorry for the long post. Read it if you are interested of my rulings for some (IMHO) borken abilities and rules.</p><p>**************</p><p></p><p>I have been a DM for a group of players that have advanced from ECL 4 (1st level) to ECL 23 (20th to 22nd lvl) during the last 2,5 years.</p><p></p><p>I have noticed that there are some stuff that really makes the game borken at higher levels. Spells are one problem and quite high stat bonuses are another. </p><p>I usually will let players use something during the current adventure. When the adventure ends and the players level, I will nerf the problems, if there were any. (The players level at the end of each adventure, we don't keep any track of killed monsters vs gained exp. I just assign enough exp to get to next level with a buffer to cast xp taking spells like Commune).</p><p></p><p>1) Assisting a melee to hit. Party fights _very_ tough monster (Miska from Rod of 7 parts, modified to very nasty demon). Caster summons a bunch of celestial badgers around Miska and then the badgers proceed to hit AC 10. Most succeed and for each success, the next melee hit gains +2. The whole situation was unbelievably funny <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />. I loved the idea of a horde of celestial badgers harassing a huge spiderlike monstrous demon for the most important hit.</p><p></p><p>Although, I won't approve that anymore. The monsters that assist someone to hit must themselves succeed at hitting the AC of the target (Around 54 in the above case).</p><p></p><p>2) Tumble through something with static DC 15. We started to have large/huge Pit fiends, Balors, solars, planetars, dragons, aboleths, mountain giants, epic monsters, you name it, that were tumbling around. Usually in mid-flight. That just ... was ridiculous. Even our fighter took enough crossclass skills to tumble around (Wearing bracers of armour).</p><p></p><p>No more. To tumble through occupied space, the DC is 10+the opponents BAB. This way those who have it as class skill still can usually succeed. And the crossclassing tumblers are out of luck (as they should be).</p><p></p><p>3) Polymorphs, PolyAO, Shapechange.</p><p></p><p>We have a wizard/EK/Witchhunter/Spellsword/Swashbuckler who is a melee fighter that buffs himself with polymorphs and GMWs etc before fight. He started at level 13 though, as he came to play in the middle of the campaign. Before this, nobody had used any Poly spells. Around lvl 16 or so, I nerfed them as follows:</p><p>Alter self: Max stat 15, max natural armour 5</p><p>Polymorph: Maximum stat 20, Max natural armour 10</p><p>Polymorph any object when used as polymorph: Max stat 30, Max NA 15</p><p>Shapechange: Max stat 35, Max NA 20, no regeneration or SR, all special (SU) abilities are totally under my jurisdiction. No beholder main eye, no choker haste etc.</p><p>On the other hand, if the caster has higher physical stat than the one he is transforming to, he keeps the original stat.</p><p>This way, he needs to use higher level spells to gain the best physical stats when fighting, instead of spammin a 4th level spell to gain 30+ str and 26+ dex with wings etc (Horned Devil).</p><p>Polys are very flexible spells as a utility spells. Even with the nerfs, they still are also the best stat buffs. I don't know, what could be done to them so that they would be utilty spells, not stat buffs... removing the stat changing aspect completely might make them too weak. </p><p></p><p>4) Mordenkainen's Disjunction does not destroy permanent magical items. If the will save is failure, the item stays non-magical for 1day/CL of the MDK. If a charged item (scroll, potion, staff, wand, chime of opening) fails the will save, it is destroyed.</p><p></p><p>5) Gate. Max HD of the called monster is 25 or CL, whichever is lower. Calling a non-specific creature to fight for 1rnd/CL does not cost XP, although the called creature might not like it. Calling a non-specific creature for bargaining does not cost XP. Calling for a specific creature that has NOT given you a permit to call it whenever you want, costs the 1000 XP. The called creature (if the permit is not given beforehand) gains a will save to resist the Gate (XP is gone anyway). </p><p>Gate can be used as attack spell by casting it horizontally under someones feet (non-flying target, of course). This way it gives Ref save but no SR roll.</p><p></p><p>6) Archmage ability that shapes an area of the a burst/emanation/spread/cone spell. This abilty does NOT function with Antimagic Field or MDK (Mord Disjunc).</p><p></p><p>7) Fleshshiver spell from PGtF (IIRC). The fort save is done BEFORE the 1 round stun. If save succeeds, no stun. Fanfare from S&S is right out.</p><p></p><p>8) Natures favour, Natures Avatar, Awaken. No, these spells cannot be cast on a shapechanged or wildshaped person, or any other being that has not been an [animal] type from the birth.</p><p></p><p>9) Divination spells kinda rule in the epic play too. Mind blank is a standard issue spell on about every caster BBEG.</p><p></p><p>10) It hasn't become an issue yet, but I belive I would put either SR- or save-chance for thrown Fire Seeds.</p><p></p><p>11) Spellsword/Spellblade(?), well the +1 enchantment to weapon that, when hold, can absorb a specific targetted spell without any preparation and then cast it as a free action next round to a target of weapon holders choosing.</p><p></p><p>I removed this totally few weeks ago. Everyone was running around with somekind of a weapon with 'Dispell, Greater' -spellblade on it. No way to dispell anyone thoroughly, only area dispells were effective. I think Ring of spell turning and rod of absorption type items are enough as it is. +1 is a measly price to pay for immunity to targetted greater dispell. It was kind of a 'no-brainer'.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Additionally, high stats really make some effects quite unbalancing. Of course, saves are good etc, but what if the sorcerer and bard (around +13 CHA bonus) take 1 level of Marshall(?) from MinatureHB to give everyone within 60' additional +13 to penetrate SR? Or a few levels of class that gives cha bonus to all saves? The mage above took swashbuckler to get +12 int bonus on damage (in addition to STR), but happily that only works with light weapons, so no PAttack. IMHO, it might be nice if all the classes and PRCs that give stat bonus to something, would give it only 1 point / lvl of the class/prc. Around level 10, the rest could be given. Ie, if someone has cha bonus +15, he would get only +1 to all saves as 1st lvl paladin. Then +2 at 2nd ... +9 at 9th level and then the +15 at 10th level. This way the 1-2 level dips to a class to get stat bonuses to XXX would not be so good choices.</p><p></p><p></p><p>For my next campaign, I'm thinking about dropping whole divination school from magic. There would be few attack spells with save and SR, that could reveal the spells and effects on a target for that round. This kind of spell would be around 7th level. Detect magic might be also around, but maybe as a 4th level spell from universal school, without the 3rd round concentration ability. Analyze dweomer would be 9th level universal spell. That's about it.</p><p>Players would need to trust on search for traps, craft/profession to 'feel' out a magic weapon (if it does not glow, etc) and alchemy/profession to check out potions.</p><p></p><p>Another magic area that might go too is all spells with (teleportation) as type. Players would need to travel, or use the FR Backroads and crossroads type portals. To get to another plane, they would need to gather/buy/find information about possible portals etc.</p><p></p><p>Well, thanks for the interest.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dthamilaye, post: 1688388, member: 11890"] Sorry for the long post. Read it if you are interested of my rulings for some (IMHO) borken abilities and rules. ************** I have been a DM for a group of players that have advanced from ECL 4 (1st level) to ECL 23 (20th to 22nd lvl) during the last 2,5 years. I have noticed that there are some stuff that really makes the game borken at higher levels. Spells are one problem and quite high stat bonuses are another. I usually will let players use something during the current adventure. When the adventure ends and the players level, I will nerf the problems, if there were any. (The players level at the end of each adventure, we don't keep any track of killed monsters vs gained exp. I just assign enough exp to get to next level with a buffer to cast xp taking spells like Commune). 1) Assisting a melee to hit. Party fights _very_ tough monster (Miska from Rod of 7 parts, modified to very nasty demon). Caster summons a bunch of celestial badgers around Miska and then the badgers proceed to hit AC 10. Most succeed and for each success, the next melee hit gains +2. The whole situation was unbelievably funny :). I loved the idea of a horde of celestial badgers harassing a huge spiderlike monstrous demon for the most important hit. Although, I won't approve that anymore. The monsters that assist someone to hit must themselves succeed at hitting the AC of the target (Around 54 in the above case). 2) Tumble through something with static DC 15. We started to have large/huge Pit fiends, Balors, solars, planetars, dragons, aboleths, mountain giants, epic monsters, you name it, that were tumbling around. Usually in mid-flight. That just ... was ridiculous. Even our fighter took enough crossclass skills to tumble around (Wearing bracers of armour). No more. To tumble through occupied space, the DC is 10+the opponents BAB. This way those who have it as class skill still can usually succeed. And the crossclassing tumblers are out of luck (as they should be). 3) Polymorphs, PolyAO, Shapechange. We have a wizard/EK/Witchhunter/Spellsword/Swashbuckler who is a melee fighter that buffs himself with polymorphs and GMWs etc before fight. He started at level 13 though, as he came to play in the middle of the campaign. Before this, nobody had used any Poly spells. Around lvl 16 or so, I nerfed them as follows: Alter self: Max stat 15, max natural armour 5 Polymorph: Maximum stat 20, Max natural armour 10 Polymorph any object when used as polymorph: Max stat 30, Max NA 15 Shapechange: Max stat 35, Max NA 20, no regeneration or SR, all special (SU) abilities are totally under my jurisdiction. No beholder main eye, no choker haste etc. On the other hand, if the caster has higher physical stat than the one he is transforming to, he keeps the original stat. This way, he needs to use higher level spells to gain the best physical stats when fighting, instead of spammin a 4th level spell to gain 30+ str and 26+ dex with wings etc (Horned Devil). Polys are very flexible spells as a utility spells. Even with the nerfs, they still are also the best stat buffs. I don't know, what could be done to them so that they would be utilty spells, not stat buffs... removing the stat changing aspect completely might make them too weak. 4) Mordenkainen's Disjunction does not destroy permanent magical items. If the will save is failure, the item stays non-magical for 1day/CL of the MDK. If a charged item (scroll, potion, staff, wand, chime of opening) fails the will save, it is destroyed. 5) Gate. Max HD of the called monster is 25 or CL, whichever is lower. Calling a non-specific creature to fight for 1rnd/CL does not cost XP, although the called creature might not like it. Calling a non-specific creature for bargaining does not cost XP. Calling for a specific creature that has NOT given you a permit to call it whenever you want, costs the 1000 XP. The called creature (if the permit is not given beforehand) gains a will save to resist the Gate (XP is gone anyway). Gate can be used as attack spell by casting it horizontally under someones feet (non-flying target, of course). This way it gives Ref save but no SR roll. 6) Archmage ability that shapes an area of the a burst/emanation/spread/cone spell. This abilty does NOT function with Antimagic Field or MDK (Mord Disjunc). 7) Fleshshiver spell from PGtF (IIRC). The fort save is done BEFORE the 1 round stun. If save succeeds, no stun. Fanfare from S&S is right out. 8) Natures favour, Natures Avatar, Awaken. No, these spells cannot be cast on a shapechanged or wildshaped person, or any other being that has not been an [animal] type from the birth. 9) Divination spells kinda rule in the epic play too. Mind blank is a standard issue spell on about every caster BBEG. 10) It hasn't become an issue yet, but I belive I would put either SR- or save-chance for thrown Fire Seeds. 11) Spellsword/Spellblade(?), well the +1 enchantment to weapon that, when hold, can absorb a specific targetted spell without any preparation and then cast it as a free action next round to a target of weapon holders choosing. I removed this totally few weeks ago. Everyone was running around with somekind of a weapon with 'Dispell, Greater' -spellblade on it. No way to dispell anyone thoroughly, only area dispells were effective. I think Ring of spell turning and rod of absorption type items are enough as it is. +1 is a measly price to pay for immunity to targetted greater dispell. It was kind of a 'no-brainer'. Additionally, high stats really make some effects quite unbalancing. Of course, saves are good etc, but what if the sorcerer and bard (around +13 CHA bonus) take 1 level of Marshall(?) from MinatureHB to give everyone within 60' additional +13 to penetrate SR? Or a few levels of class that gives cha bonus to all saves? The mage above took swashbuckler to get +12 int bonus on damage (in addition to STR), but happily that only works with light weapons, so no PAttack. IMHO, it might be nice if all the classes and PRCs that give stat bonus to something, would give it only 1 point / lvl of the class/prc. Around level 10, the rest could be given. Ie, if someone has cha bonus +15, he would get only +1 to all saves as 1st lvl paladin. Then +2 at 2nd ... +9 at 9th level and then the +15 at 10th level. This way the 1-2 level dips to a class to get stat bonuses to XXX would not be so good choices. For my next campaign, I'm thinking about dropping whole divination school from magic. There would be few attack spells with save and SR, that could reveal the spells and effects on a target for that round. This kind of spell would be around 7th level. Detect magic might be also around, but maybe as a 4th level spell from universal school, without the 3rd round concentration ability. Analyze dweomer would be 9th level universal spell. That's about it. Players would need to trust on search for traps, craft/profession to 'feel' out a magic weapon (if it does not glow, etc) and alchemy/profession to check out potions. Another magic area that might go too is all spells with (teleportation) as type. Players would need to travel, or use the FR Backroads and crossroads type portals. To get to another plane, they would need to gather/buy/find information about possible portals etc. Well, thanks for the interest. [/QUOTE]
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