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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7565871" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Certainly. Depending on ed, it can be quite a challenge, mainly for the DM, but sure, a number of times.</p><p></p><p> 5e hard-caps at 20, like 3.x did before the Epic rules, 4e capped at 30, like 3.x did with the Epic rules, only playable. </p><p></p><p>AD&D had hard caps for some classes and most non-/demi- human race/class combos. But the basics - Human Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Thief, etc - had no stated level cap. Advancement beyond 'name' level (8-12, depending on class), though, was glacial.</p><p></p><p> So, I've extensively played every edition from 1e AD&D through 5e. That's leaving out 0D&D, which I played the odd one-shot game with nostalgic old timers back in the 80s (they were all being nostalgic for the old times of only 10 years previous!), Basic D&D, which also has different versions, the c1979 version I played (a little, with friends who did not understand the game, at all) being significantly different from the peak-popularity 'Red Box,' it seems, and BECMI, which I never touched and barely heard of. Also, while I ran 2e for about 5 years, I rarely played it, when it did, it was usually with a converted 1e character, and I'd given up on it by the time all the ______Option books were out.</p><p></p><p>So, that said.</p><p>AD&D: I've seen two kinds of high-level AD&D games 1) the kinds that were heavily modified, and 2) the kind that fell apart (and, to be fair, the kind that were both kinds).</p><p></p><p>I played in several games that started at around 9th and made it over 10th, but not a lot over - IIRC, the Thief in one made it to 14, my Druid managed enough exp for 12 but never got to fight his little duel - they all fell apart quite quickly. I even played some high-level one-shots or short campaigns, which didn't last long enough for leveling, and they were prettymuch fiascos, with wild characters pulled from a variety of heavily-modified and/or 'Monty Haul' campaigns under different DMs.</p><p></p><p>I ran an AD&D game that spanned 1e & 2e, going just over 10 years, was heavily modified, and had most characters reach 14th level (one hit 18th, but it was a 2e custom class that had few abilities and needed little exp to level, and one ran aground on race/class level limits). It was hardly recognizable as D&D by the end, though.</p><p></p><p>3.x: I played in two campaigns that went up through 14th level. By 11th they were in pretty rough shape, and clearly falling apart at the seams by the end. But, by then then characters were so beloved it was worth it to wrap their stories. I ran a 3.0 campaign, but it did not reach 10th. Our group experimented with a characters-built-at-15th campaign - it didn't reach 16th.</p><p></p><p>4e: I Played in two campaigns that made it to Paragon; several mini-campaigns at Paragon or Epic that intentionally lasted only the span of level or few; A campaign that went from 2nd (IDK why it didn't start at 1st) through 23rd and is still going (though meeting infrequently due to RL); and I ran a campaign from 2012 to 2018 that started as an Encounters season (levels 1-4) and just kept going - it's on indefinite hiatus due to my health, but the characters were 25th level when I threw in the towel. </p><p>The basic math of 4e remained neatly workable at all levels, and it didn't give out campaign-wrecking abilities to specific classes the way other eds have. Paragon and Epic did introduce some dramatic up-ticks in what PCs could do, but nothing nearly so problematic as 1e Wish or 3e Polymorph, for instance, and typically in a somewhat more-balanced(? ... OK,less imbalanced) way, with no class being entirely left out in the cold that way.</p><p></p><p>5e: I Ran lots of introductory games and some AL, always at low level. Played a few one-shots here & there, no higher than 8th, IIRC. </p><p>5e's basic "bounded accuracy" math /should/ hold up to higher level play better than AD&D or 3.x did, but I haven't seen a game last long enough to test that theory.</p><p></p><p> Your impression is broadly correct, or, at least, it's a time-honored truism. High level D&D back in the day was unworkable: it degenerated into mechanical dysfunction, cosmic one-upmanship, deep paranoia, and general insanity. DMs would make it work through sheer determination, at times, but it was generally easier to "retire" at name level, and slog through 1st-3rd again (& again) until a decent set of fun characters emerged, and have fun playing them, until they, too, all-too-soon, reached name level.</p><p></p><p>One of the subtle, perverse, but most damning of classic D&D's (0e, BECMI, AD&D) many failings was the pacing implicit in the exp tables. Advancement was a slow, brutal, crawl through a lethal gauntlet at 1st level. By the time a character (possibly the nth of many) survived to 2nd or 3rd, it could start getting fun - but, the exp chart relative to the threats you could take on meant that advancement at that point became a lot faster - by the time the system really started showing cracks, say 9th or 11th, "Name Level," the exp tables topped out at huge amounts to reach your next level even relative to the exp high level monsters & treasures were worth, so, just as the game was starting to really suck, it slowed way down, so you could savor the dysfunction.</p><p></p><p>So by the time the 80s fad had flopped and TSR folded, it was a well-known & popular fact that high-level D&D just didn't get played that much.</p><p></p><p>As a result, when they were playtesting 3e, they didn't bother going much beyond 10th. 3e was still a bit innovative, though: it maintained a more even pace of advancement, as the exp gained from overcoming challenges remained more or less in proportion to that required to advance to the next level - and everyone was on the same exp table, too. So even if 3e did fall apart by the time you were in double digits, it at least didn't slow advancement to a crawl so you didn't have to spend 15 years getting to 'retirement' at 20th before starting to have fun again. </p><p></p><p>Likewise, 4e wasn't heavily playtest at high levels (I'm not sure it was heavily playtested, at all achieved comparatively (though compared to other eds of D&D may not be saying much) robust balance at all levels, to go with 3e-style even advancement. It was by far the most functional version of the game, in terms of balance at any level, and playability at high level, particularly - so much so that it was barely recognizable as D&D. ;P</p><p></p><p>5e may have returned to an advancement scheme that makes high level play problematic, but it also does a few things to ameliorate the issue of dysfunctional high level play/class imbalance (which was, by the time 4e fixed it, one of those bugs that had evolved into not just a feature, but a sacred cow). For instance, while casters are still superior to non-casters, the grim fate of non-casting is inflicted upon only a handful of sub-classes. And, of course, the DM is given great latitude to arbitrarily redress any such issues - if there's one poor schmuck playing a fighter at 15th level, the McGuffin artifact central to the campaign can just happen to be his signature weapon, for instance. </p><p>But the most systematic is the exp table. As in 4e & 3e, there's just one, but it's not even relative to the exp you get for overcoming 'level appropriate' challenges. First level goes the fastest, you can even emerge from then muck in a single session. The rest of apprentice tier is still pretty fast, an 'adventuring day' can see you make a level. Once the game starts getting good, around 4th or 5th, it slows down substantially, from 4th through until you hit 11th, it takes more than twice (between 2.13 and 2.333) as many 'level appropriate' encounters to go up a level than it did in apprentice tier. After 11th, it speeds back up (1.43 to 1.74 'days'/level), but is still slower than at the beginning. </p><p></p><p>If you were to fight through a 'standard' adventuring day for your level, every single day, your adventuring career would span about a month. But, you would be 3rd level by the morning of day 3, 6th level on day 10, 12th on day 22, and 18th on the 31st (in February, you'd comfortably reach 16th).</p><p>To put it another way, you're Heroic Tier for 2 weeks, but Epic Tier for little more than a long weekend (maybe a 5-day work-week if you spend another day doing stuff at 20th).</p><p></p><p>So, at least you spend more time at the best levels. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>That is, if you don't let organizers keep talking you into running 1st level games. :|</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7565871, member: 996"] Certainly. Depending on ed, it can be quite a challenge, mainly for the DM, but sure, a number of times. 5e hard-caps at 20, like 3.x did before the Epic rules, 4e capped at 30, like 3.x did with the Epic rules, only playable. AD&D had hard caps for some classes and most non-/demi- human race/class combos. But the basics - Human Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Thief, etc - had no stated level cap. Advancement beyond 'name' level (8-12, depending on class), though, was glacial. So, I've extensively played every edition from 1e AD&D through 5e. That's leaving out 0D&D, which I played the odd one-shot game with nostalgic old timers back in the 80s (they were all being nostalgic for the old times of only 10 years previous!), Basic D&D, which also has different versions, the c1979 version I played (a little, with friends who did not understand the game, at all) being significantly different from the peak-popularity 'Red Box,' it seems, and BECMI, which I never touched and barely heard of. Also, while I ran 2e for about 5 years, I rarely played it, when it did, it was usually with a converted 1e character, and I'd given up on it by the time all the ______Option books were out. So, that said. AD&D: I've seen two kinds of high-level AD&D games 1) the kinds that were heavily modified, and 2) the kind that fell apart (and, to be fair, the kind that were both kinds). I played in several games that started at around 9th and made it over 10th, but not a lot over - IIRC, the Thief in one made it to 14, my Druid managed enough exp for 12 but never got to fight his little duel - they all fell apart quite quickly. I even played some high-level one-shots or short campaigns, which didn't last long enough for leveling, and they were prettymuch fiascos, with wild characters pulled from a variety of heavily-modified and/or 'Monty Haul' campaigns under different DMs. I ran an AD&D game that spanned 1e & 2e, going just over 10 years, was heavily modified, and had most characters reach 14th level (one hit 18th, but it was a 2e custom class that had few abilities and needed little exp to level, and one ran aground on race/class level limits). It was hardly recognizable as D&D by the end, though. 3.x: I played in two campaigns that went up through 14th level. By 11th they were in pretty rough shape, and clearly falling apart at the seams by the end. But, by then then characters were so beloved it was worth it to wrap their stories. I ran a 3.0 campaign, but it did not reach 10th. Our group experimented with a characters-built-at-15th campaign - it didn't reach 16th. 4e: I Played in two campaigns that made it to Paragon; several mini-campaigns at Paragon or Epic that intentionally lasted only the span of level or few; A campaign that went from 2nd (IDK why it didn't start at 1st) through 23rd and is still going (though meeting infrequently due to RL); and I ran a campaign from 2012 to 2018 that started as an Encounters season (levels 1-4) and just kept going - it's on indefinite hiatus due to my health, but the characters were 25th level when I threw in the towel. The basic math of 4e remained neatly workable at all levels, and it didn't give out campaign-wrecking abilities to specific classes the way other eds have. Paragon and Epic did introduce some dramatic up-ticks in what PCs could do, but nothing nearly so problematic as 1e Wish or 3e Polymorph, for instance, and typically in a somewhat more-balanced(? ... OK,less imbalanced) way, with no class being entirely left out in the cold that way. 5e: I Ran lots of introductory games and some AL, always at low level. Played a few one-shots here & there, no higher than 8th, IIRC. 5e's basic "bounded accuracy" math /should/ hold up to higher level play better than AD&D or 3.x did, but I haven't seen a game last long enough to test that theory. Your impression is broadly correct, or, at least, it's a time-honored truism. High level D&D back in the day was unworkable: it degenerated into mechanical dysfunction, cosmic one-upmanship, deep paranoia, and general insanity. DMs would make it work through sheer determination, at times, but it was generally easier to "retire" at name level, and slog through 1st-3rd again (& again) until a decent set of fun characters emerged, and have fun playing them, until they, too, all-too-soon, reached name level. One of the subtle, perverse, but most damning of classic D&D's (0e, BECMI, AD&D) many failings was the pacing implicit in the exp tables. Advancement was a slow, brutal, crawl through a lethal gauntlet at 1st level. By the time a character (possibly the nth of many) survived to 2nd or 3rd, it could start getting fun - but, the exp chart relative to the threats you could take on meant that advancement at that point became a lot faster - by the time the system really started showing cracks, say 9th or 11th, "Name Level," the exp tables topped out at huge amounts to reach your next level even relative to the exp high level monsters & treasures were worth, so, just as the game was starting to really suck, it slowed way down, so you could savor the dysfunction. So by the time the 80s fad had flopped and TSR folded, it was a well-known & popular fact that high-level D&D just didn't get played that much. As a result, when they were playtesting 3e, they didn't bother going much beyond 10th. 3e was still a bit innovative, though: it maintained a more even pace of advancement, as the exp gained from overcoming challenges remained more or less in proportion to that required to advance to the next level - and everyone was on the same exp table, too. So even if 3e did fall apart by the time you were in double digits, it at least didn't slow advancement to a crawl so you didn't have to spend 15 years getting to 'retirement' at 20th before starting to have fun again. Likewise, 4e wasn't heavily playtest at high levels (I'm not sure it was heavily playtested, at all achieved comparatively (though compared to other eds of D&D may not be saying much) robust balance at all levels, to go with 3e-style even advancement. It was by far the most functional version of the game, in terms of balance at any level, and playability at high level, particularly - so much so that it was barely recognizable as D&D. ;P 5e may have returned to an advancement scheme that makes high level play problematic, but it also does a few things to ameliorate the issue of dysfunctional high level play/class imbalance (which was, by the time 4e fixed it, one of those bugs that had evolved into not just a feature, but a sacred cow). For instance, while casters are still superior to non-casters, the grim fate of non-casting is inflicted upon only a handful of sub-classes. And, of course, the DM is given great latitude to arbitrarily redress any such issues - if there's one poor schmuck playing a fighter at 15th level, the McGuffin artifact central to the campaign can just happen to be his signature weapon, for instance. But the most systematic is the exp table. As in 4e & 3e, there's just one, but it's not even relative to the exp you get for overcoming 'level appropriate' challenges. First level goes the fastest, you can even emerge from then muck in a single session. The rest of apprentice tier is still pretty fast, an 'adventuring day' can see you make a level. Once the game starts getting good, around 4th or 5th, it slows down substantially, from 4th through until you hit 11th, it takes more than twice (between 2.13 and 2.333) as many 'level appropriate' encounters to go up a level than it did in apprentice tier. After 11th, it speeds back up (1.43 to 1.74 'days'/level), but is still slower than at the beginning. If you were to fight through a 'standard' adventuring day for your level, every single day, your adventuring career would span about a month. But, you would be 3rd level by the morning of day 3, 6th level on day 10, 12th on day 22, and 18th on the 31st (in February, you'd comfortably reach 16th). To put it another way, you're Heroic Tier for 2 weeks, but Epic Tier for little more than a long weekend (maybe a 5-day work-week if you spend another day doing stuff at 20th). So, at least you spend more time at the best levels. :) That is, if you don't let organizers keep talking you into running 1st level games. :| [/QUOTE]
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