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<blockquote data-quote="MNblockhead" data-source="post: 7151228" data-attributes="member: 6796661"><p>I just has this same issue. A rogue in the party I'm DMing for has 21 passive perception. I don't care about him not being able to be surprised. My problem was with how traps and secret doors we becoming pointless. In many published adventures, he'll just notice every trap and secret door. This was really bugging me in my latest sessions, but I realize that this is more about me not handling the passive perception to investigation flow very well. My thoughts of handling this are:</p><p></p><p>1. Don't punish the player for his build by ignoring RAW</p><p></p><p>2. You could just increase the DC, but don't.</p><p></p><p>Increasing the DC of traps to make things more difficult doesn't sit well with me. This is just punishing your player. He can never benefit from his character's increasing skills because you are just increasing the DC to thwart him. For a trap or secret door to have a DC above 20, it needs to have a special story behind it. It would need to have been designed by Grimtooth on his best day in his prime. If all the secret doors and traps in all your dungeons are 22 and above in higher-tier play...that's just dumb.</p><p></p><p>3. Perception means you notices something amiss, not that you solve the trap and find the door. There is no passive investigation. </p><p></p><p>Perception simply means that you see something worth investigating. Granted, many characters with high passive perception are going to have great investigation skills as well, but the thing is they have to roll. They could get a 1. There is still some chance of failure, even if they will breeze through most traps and doors. I realize that any skill check could be passive, but I don't do passive investigation and I've never had a player complain. Investigation by definition seems to have to be active. Ignoring passive perception, on the other hand, would be unfair for your players unless you make this home-brew rule clear from the very beginning. </p><p></p><p>4. You can throw in false leads</p><p></p><p>Not everything that is suspicious is a trap or secret door. Sometimes the designers or builders made a mistake, made an unusual design choice, or age and movement of earth or seeping water creates discolorations and cracks. Have your rogue investigate these so they are never sure if when they rolled low on investigation that they missed a trap. If you have enough instances of them noticing something strange and after rolling a high investigation score discovering it was just a trick of the light or an unusual erosion pattern, well, when they roll low on investigation they might not automatically assume it is a trap. </p><p></p><p>5. Not all traps can be perceived passively</p><p></p><p>Say you have a door. A regular door. But on the other size, a string is tied to the door handle, the other end pulls a release that sends a huge log swinging down and out the door smashing anyone in its way. Walking by that door will not tell you anything. The character still needs to be in the habit of investigating every door maybe opening ever so slightly to see if it feels like there is more resistance than there should peaking through the crack, whatever. Bottom line is that a roll is still needed. </p><p></p><p>I don't think, therefore, that there is an issue with the rules, but for newer DMs, I do think they could have made it easier to understand the interplay of perception and investigation.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MNblockhead, post: 7151228, member: 6796661"] I just has this same issue. A rogue in the party I'm DMing for has 21 passive perception. I don't care about him not being able to be surprised. My problem was with how traps and secret doors we becoming pointless. In many published adventures, he'll just notice every trap and secret door. This was really bugging me in my latest sessions, but I realize that this is more about me not handling the passive perception to investigation flow very well. My thoughts of handling this are: 1. Don't punish the player for his build by ignoring RAW 2. You could just increase the DC, but don't. Increasing the DC of traps to make things more difficult doesn't sit well with me. This is just punishing your player. He can never benefit from his character's increasing skills because you are just increasing the DC to thwart him. For a trap or secret door to have a DC above 20, it needs to have a special story behind it. It would need to have been designed by Grimtooth on his best day in his prime. If all the secret doors and traps in all your dungeons are 22 and above in higher-tier play...that's just dumb. 3. Perception means you notices something amiss, not that you solve the trap and find the door. There is no passive investigation. Perception simply means that you see something worth investigating. Granted, many characters with high passive perception are going to have great investigation skills as well, but the thing is they have to roll. They could get a 1. There is still some chance of failure, even if they will breeze through most traps and doors. I realize that any skill check could be passive, but I don't do passive investigation and I've never had a player complain. Investigation by definition seems to have to be active. Ignoring passive perception, on the other hand, would be unfair for your players unless you make this home-brew rule clear from the very beginning. 4. You can throw in false leads Not everything that is suspicious is a trap or secret door. Sometimes the designers or builders made a mistake, made an unusual design choice, or age and movement of earth or seeping water creates discolorations and cracks. Have your rogue investigate these so they are never sure if when they rolled low on investigation that they missed a trap. If you have enough instances of them noticing something strange and after rolling a high investigation score discovering it was just a trick of the light or an unusual erosion pattern, well, when they roll low on investigation they might not automatically assume it is a trap. 5. Not all traps can be perceived passively Say you have a door. A regular door. But on the other size, a string is tied to the door handle, the other end pulls a release that sends a huge log swinging down and out the door smashing anyone in its way. Walking by that door will not tell you anything. The character still needs to be in the habit of investigating every door maybe opening ever so slightly to see if it feels like there is more resistance than there should peaking through the crack, whatever. Bottom line is that a roll is still needed. I don't think, therefore, that there is an issue with the rules, but for newer DMs, I do think they could have made it easier to understand the interplay of perception and investigation. [/QUOTE]
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