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<blockquote data-quote="MaxKaladin" data-source="post: 967697" data-attributes="member: 1196"><p>Let me just address Rome.</p><p></p><p>First of all, I find it hard to believe that Rome and Carthage would not continue to have bloody wars until one or the other was conquered. </p><p></p><p>Assuming they reached a wary truce though Rome would either not exist or be unrecognizable long before the 7th century A.D.</p><p></p><p>First of all, no victory over Carthage means no Spanish or African provinces. That changes everything. A lot of early wealth for Rome came from Spain and Africa province was a breadbasket for Rome before (and still after) it got Egypt. </p><p></p><p>Second, it changes the political careers of some very important folks. For starters, there was this Roman named Gaius Marius. He lived in the late 2nd and early 1st centuries BC. He wasn't from an aristocratic family and got where he did based on ability and wealth. The problem? Well, he got his start by impressing people while serving with Scipio Aemilianus in the final conquest of Carthage. Later, he went on to serve a governorship in Spain for a while, where he became very rich. He won more fame fighting King Jurgatha in Africa under another general and then was elected Consul and put in charge himself to settle things one and for all, which he did. After this, he went on to defeat a huge hoard of migrating Germanic tribesmen who had already defeated several Roman armies and who were about to enter Roman Gaul (the part they had before Caesar took the whole thing.) During all this, he reorganized the Roman army into what we think of as the legions, introduced the Pilum and introduced the practice of recruiting landless men into the army all of which had important consequences. Until Caesar, he was considered the finest General Rome had ever produced. </p><p></p><p>There was another guy named Lucius Cornelius Sulla, who learned at the feet of Marius and became the first Roman to march on Rome to impose his will. By that point in his life, he was fighting bitterly with Marius, who also marched on Rome at one point. Sulla also introduced proscription lists, which were lists of people who were supposedly criminals against the republic and who could be killed with impunity. Their property was confiscated by the state to fill the treasury and physical assets were sold at auction to turn them into cash for the treasury. </p><p></p><p>Both of these men also profited from wars in the east beyond Greece at one time. </p><p></p><p>Among the folks who profited from Sulla's proscriptions was a guy named Marcus Licinius Crassus. He became the richest man in Rome by buying property at bargain basement prices during the proscriptions. He used his private fortune to help Caesar once or twice. He also used his private fortune to build the army that finally brought Spartacus down, though the veteran armies also arrived at the end of things. Then again, without foriegn conquest, the slaves who revolted probably wouldn't have been there anyway. At least not in those numbers. </p><p></p><p>Now, Gaius Marius also had a wife and she had a sister who was married to someone named Gaius Julius Caesar. No, not that one. He was their son, which makes him Marius' nephew. There is some speculation that he learned a great deal of his generaling skills at Marius' knee, though Marius eventually turned against him for fear that Caesar would outshine him. </p><p></p><p>Caesar himself got a great deal out of both Spain and the East. He was Governor of part of Spain for a while and made some good money there. </p><p></p><p>Also consider Pompey, who built a reputation as a general fighting in Spain. He would eventually sweep the Mediterranean of pirates and be Caesar's opponent in the Civil War after he crossed the Rubicon. </p><p></p><p>Now, all of that doesn't happen because Carthage never falls. Do those Germanic tribesmen overrun Rome since there isn't a Gaius Marius to oppose them? Is there another possibility? Yes. One of the big events of the 1st century BC was the Social War. Basically, the Italian and Greek cities of Italy , who had been under Roman rule for a long time, had had enough of being inferior to Rome and revolted. There was a big war that Rome eventually won with the help of Marius and Sulla, among others. Would Rome have survived that war without the experience of these veterans of so many foriegn wars and without their veteran troops?</p><p></p><p>There are a number of other things that wouldn't happen. Among them, there would be no influx of slaves to Italy replacing men who were away serving in the army for years at a time. This means that the roman citizen-farmer would not be eliminated like it was in real life. </p><p></p><p>I figure either Rome would have been crushed by marauding barbarians or defeated in a revolt by its italian subjects before 600AD.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MaxKaladin, post: 967697, member: 1196"] Let me just address Rome. First of all, I find it hard to believe that Rome and Carthage would not continue to have bloody wars until one or the other was conquered. Assuming they reached a wary truce though Rome would either not exist or be unrecognizable long before the 7th century A.D. First of all, no victory over Carthage means no Spanish or African provinces. That changes everything. A lot of early wealth for Rome came from Spain and Africa province was a breadbasket for Rome before (and still after) it got Egypt. Second, it changes the political careers of some very important folks. For starters, there was this Roman named Gaius Marius. He lived in the late 2nd and early 1st centuries BC. He wasn't from an aristocratic family and got where he did based on ability and wealth. The problem? Well, he got his start by impressing people while serving with Scipio Aemilianus in the final conquest of Carthage. Later, he went on to serve a governorship in Spain for a while, where he became very rich. He won more fame fighting King Jurgatha in Africa under another general and then was elected Consul and put in charge himself to settle things one and for all, which he did. After this, he went on to defeat a huge hoard of migrating Germanic tribesmen who had already defeated several Roman armies and who were about to enter Roman Gaul (the part they had before Caesar took the whole thing.) During all this, he reorganized the Roman army into what we think of as the legions, introduced the Pilum and introduced the practice of recruiting landless men into the army all of which had important consequences. Until Caesar, he was considered the finest General Rome had ever produced. There was another guy named Lucius Cornelius Sulla, who learned at the feet of Marius and became the first Roman to march on Rome to impose his will. By that point in his life, he was fighting bitterly with Marius, who also marched on Rome at one point. Sulla also introduced proscription lists, which were lists of people who were supposedly criminals against the republic and who could be killed with impunity. Their property was confiscated by the state to fill the treasury and physical assets were sold at auction to turn them into cash for the treasury. Both of these men also profited from wars in the east beyond Greece at one time. Among the folks who profited from Sulla's proscriptions was a guy named Marcus Licinius Crassus. He became the richest man in Rome by buying property at bargain basement prices during the proscriptions. He used his private fortune to help Caesar once or twice. He also used his private fortune to build the army that finally brought Spartacus down, though the veteran armies also arrived at the end of things. Then again, without foriegn conquest, the slaves who revolted probably wouldn't have been there anyway. At least not in those numbers. Now, Gaius Marius also had a wife and she had a sister who was married to someone named Gaius Julius Caesar. No, not that one. He was their son, which makes him Marius' nephew. There is some speculation that he learned a great deal of his generaling skills at Marius' knee, though Marius eventually turned against him for fear that Caesar would outshine him. Caesar himself got a great deal out of both Spain and the East. He was Governor of part of Spain for a while and made some good money there. Also consider Pompey, who built a reputation as a general fighting in Spain. He would eventually sweep the Mediterranean of pirates and be Caesar's opponent in the Civil War after he crossed the Rubicon. Now, all of that doesn't happen because Carthage never falls. Do those Germanic tribesmen overrun Rome since there isn't a Gaius Marius to oppose them? Is there another possibility? Yes. One of the big events of the 1st century BC was the Social War. Basically, the Italian and Greek cities of Italy , who had been under Roman rule for a long time, had had enough of being inferior to Rome and revolted. There was a big war that Rome eventually won with the help of Marius and Sulla, among others. Would Rome have survived that war without the experience of these veterans of so many foriegn wars and without their veteran troops? There are a number of other things that wouldn't happen. Among them, there would be no influx of slaves to Italy replacing men who were away serving in the army for years at a time. This means that the roman citizen-farmer would not be eliminated like it was in real life. I figure either Rome would have been crushed by marauding barbarians or defeated in a revolt by its italian subjects before 600AD. [/QUOTE]
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