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<blockquote data-quote="GreenTengu" data-source="post: 6799568" data-attributes="member: 6777454"><p>The monster manual has never done a decent job of modeling non-PC race societies. There is a lot you need to consider.</p><p></p><p>First, unlike as presented in the monster manual-- not every hobgoblin is going to be a standard soldier. Culturally it is likely that every one of them gets basic militia training as it is a fundamental part of their culture-- but even with their tendency to take slaves when/if they can and the fact that they generally aren't inclined as a culture to really develop land to the extent humans do (their farms don't sprawl out for miles and miles, they don't build up bustling cities) with maybe exceptions in a few settings, the overwhelming majority of their people are still going to be laborers, craftsmen, academics, etc. Whether that means growing or hunting the food, smithing, masonry, child rearing, or so forth. All the various roles that it is inescapable that a society of self-sufficient intelligent humanoids just necessarily has to do.</p><p></p><p>Really, no more than somewhere between 10-30% of their society can really be full-time soldiers since their culture is militaristic, but at the same time they aren't living in grime and mud and undoubtedly manage to cloth, feed, house and equip their people, its probably around 25% -- which is still considerably higher than humans who are likely at around 10%.</p><p></p><p>Of course, I imagine every hobgoblin has some combat training as part of their basic education, possibly even empathized above reading and writing... possibly. Also, they probably engage in daily exercises to a far greater extent than most human cultures do.</p><p></p><p>Which then presents the difficult question-- do those stats under the "Hobgoblin" in the monster manual represent the basic, average, run-of-the-mill hobgoblins or do they represent full-time combat soldiers? </p><p></p><p>If the former, then where are the stats for dedicated, full-time soldiers who make their life on winning in combat and live or die by the sword-- for those ought to be a considerable step up from the hobgoblin carpenter or the hobgoblin medic or the hobgoblin courier.</p><p></p><p>If the later, clearly they don't represent scouts, cavalry, archers, or engineers, they only represent the phalanx soldiers who might be the most common training style, but certainly not all soldiers are trained in the exact same manner.</p><p></p><p>And, finally-- what exactly does it mean by "captain"? Is this a general term of whomever happens to be in charge? In that case, every single party of hobgoblins out there is going to have a "captain" no matter the size. Is it a specific rank? In such a case, is it distinctly different from "Sergeant" or does it mean exactly the same thing? If it is different, then how does the culture differentiate between enlisted and officers? Is it about blood line or education or does one have to earn the rank through some particularly heroic action?</p><p></p><p>What I hope to highlight here is.... there has never actually been even the slightest critical thought put into any of this. Yes, the very first edition threw out some random numbers-- but it was remarkable just how little critical thought or examination was put into designing the non-human races at the time (even the ones that were PCs!)-- so those numbers were literally just pulled out of someone's rear end on a whim and well deserve to go right where anything pulled from someone's rear end would go. Which isn't do say that after examining the issue critically one won't find that they were in the right general ballpark-- but they aren't useful or even helpful because you miss all the steps in between that really give you the information you need.</p><p></p><p>But, if I had to answer...</p><p>Out of 1000 hobgoblins</p><p>750 of them are going to be best represented by taking the CR 0-1/4 NPC section in the book and plugging in hobgoblin racial traits (such as those in this thread <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?474300-5E-Goblin-Gith-Hobgoblin-amp-Rakasta" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?474300-5E-Goblin-Gith-Hobgoblin-amp-Rakasta</a>) and the overwhelming majority of those are going to be commoners.</p><p>150 of them are going to be roughly modeled by that CR 1/2 who is going to be the standard model soldier with the basic training-- maybe a couple minor tweaks. (Or, again, some might use the CR 1/2 NPC entries plus hobgoblin racial traits.)</p><p>75 of them are going to be like that entry but somewhere between 3-5 hit die with maybe some more special abilities geared towards archery or cavalry or medical skills or such. (Between CR 1/2-CR3)</p><p>17-18 of them are going to be the "hobgoblin captain" entry with nothing but the most basic tweaks. (CR3)</p><p>5 of them are going to be like the hobgoblin captain but somewhere between 7-12 hit die and maybe some other special abilities like noted above. (Between CR3 and CR6)</p><p>And only 1 out of 1000 is going to be best represented by the Warlord entry as this is just about the pinnacle of what you can expect any NPC who isn't the major protagonist of the story to ever reach. (CR 6)</p><p></p><p>Anything beyond that is exceptionally rare-- like maybe 1 out of 10,000 or even 100,000. At least assuming you are working within a world where any basic human-like race virtually never passes level 10. Sure, there might be some grand heroes or villains of the race out there that can achieve great things, but those exceptional individuals should be modeled individually.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GreenTengu, post: 6799568, member: 6777454"] The monster manual has never done a decent job of modeling non-PC race societies. There is a lot you need to consider. First, unlike as presented in the monster manual-- not every hobgoblin is going to be a standard soldier. Culturally it is likely that every one of them gets basic militia training as it is a fundamental part of their culture-- but even with their tendency to take slaves when/if they can and the fact that they generally aren't inclined as a culture to really develop land to the extent humans do (their farms don't sprawl out for miles and miles, they don't build up bustling cities) with maybe exceptions in a few settings, the overwhelming majority of their people are still going to be laborers, craftsmen, academics, etc. Whether that means growing or hunting the food, smithing, masonry, child rearing, or so forth. All the various roles that it is inescapable that a society of self-sufficient intelligent humanoids just necessarily has to do. Really, no more than somewhere between 10-30% of their society can really be full-time soldiers since their culture is militaristic, but at the same time they aren't living in grime and mud and undoubtedly manage to cloth, feed, house and equip their people, its probably around 25% -- which is still considerably higher than humans who are likely at around 10%. Of course, I imagine every hobgoblin has some combat training as part of their basic education, possibly even empathized above reading and writing... possibly. Also, they probably engage in daily exercises to a far greater extent than most human cultures do. Which then presents the difficult question-- do those stats under the "Hobgoblin" in the monster manual represent the basic, average, run-of-the-mill hobgoblins or do they represent full-time combat soldiers? If the former, then where are the stats for dedicated, full-time soldiers who make their life on winning in combat and live or die by the sword-- for those ought to be a considerable step up from the hobgoblin carpenter or the hobgoblin medic or the hobgoblin courier. If the later, clearly they don't represent scouts, cavalry, archers, or engineers, they only represent the phalanx soldiers who might be the most common training style, but certainly not all soldiers are trained in the exact same manner. And, finally-- what exactly does it mean by "captain"? Is this a general term of whomever happens to be in charge? In that case, every single party of hobgoblins out there is going to have a "captain" no matter the size. Is it a specific rank? In such a case, is it distinctly different from "Sergeant" or does it mean exactly the same thing? If it is different, then how does the culture differentiate between enlisted and officers? Is it about blood line or education or does one have to earn the rank through some particularly heroic action? What I hope to highlight here is.... there has never actually been even the slightest critical thought put into any of this. Yes, the very first edition threw out some random numbers-- but it was remarkable just how little critical thought or examination was put into designing the non-human races at the time (even the ones that were PCs!)-- so those numbers were literally just pulled out of someone's rear end on a whim and well deserve to go right where anything pulled from someone's rear end would go. Which isn't do say that after examining the issue critically one won't find that they were in the right general ballpark-- but they aren't useful or even helpful because you miss all the steps in between that really give you the information you need. But, if I had to answer... Out of 1000 hobgoblins 750 of them are going to be best represented by taking the CR 0-1/4 NPC section in the book and plugging in hobgoblin racial traits (such as those in this thread [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?474300-5E-Goblin-Gith-Hobgoblin-amp-Rakasta[/URL]) and the overwhelming majority of those are going to be commoners. 150 of them are going to be roughly modeled by that CR 1/2 who is going to be the standard model soldier with the basic training-- maybe a couple minor tweaks. (Or, again, some might use the CR 1/2 NPC entries plus hobgoblin racial traits.) 75 of them are going to be like that entry but somewhere between 3-5 hit die with maybe some more special abilities geared towards archery or cavalry or medical skills or such. (Between CR 1/2-CR3) 17-18 of them are going to be the "hobgoblin captain" entry with nothing but the most basic tweaks. (CR3) 5 of them are going to be like the hobgoblin captain but somewhere between 7-12 hit die and maybe some other special abilities like noted above. (Between CR3 and CR6) And only 1 out of 1000 is going to be best represented by the Warlord entry as this is just about the pinnacle of what you can expect any NPC who isn't the major protagonist of the story to ever reach. (CR 6) Anything beyond that is exceptionally rare-- like maybe 1 out of 10,000 or even 100,000. At least assuming you are working within a world where any basic human-like race virtually never passes level 10. Sure, there might be some grand heroes or villains of the race out there that can achieve great things, but those exceptional individuals should be modeled individually. [/QUOTE]
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