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Holy Symbols: are they God-specific? Can they be altered?
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<blockquote data-quote="AverageTable" data-source="post: 4387033" data-attributes="member: 71718"><p>Let me start by saying that I completely sympathise with the issue of a PC being unable to use the holy symbols he finds unless he's permitted to alter them somehow. I myself was thinking about this just the other day and was having the same debate - "Do I make sure that every piece of equipment is of the kind the PCs need yet completely destroy the suspension of disbelief; or do I maintain versimilitude by filling treasure hoards with garbage they'll never use?"</p><p> </p><p>So trust that I understand the motivation behind all the suggestions like, "Let the cleric use a free ritual to 'reconsecrate' an incompatible holy symbol and magically 'morph' it into whatever type he needs."</p><p> </p><p>Yet to put things in perspective, here is exactly what you're suggesting:</p><p> </p><p>DM: You find a magic sword! <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /></p><p>Fighter: But I'm specialised in the warhammer! Is there some guy in town who can transform the sword into a warhammer? <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/cry.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":.-(" title="Cry :.-(" data-shortname=":.-(" /></p><p>DM: You betcha! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p>-----------------------------------</p><p>DM: You find a magic wand! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite6" alt=":cool:" title="Cool :cool:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":cool:" /></p><p>Wizard: But I'm specialised in the orb! Can I perform a ritual to turn the wand into an orb? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite9" alt=":eek:" title="Eek! :eek:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":eek:" /></p><p>DM: Okie dokie! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p> </p><p>The point is that all classes suffer from this issue in different ways, not just the cleric. Can a fighter <em>use</em> a sword even if he's specialised in the warhammer? Technically yes; but he's never going to <em>want</em> to since he'll probably be <em>worse</em> off doing so even if the sword is an objectively better weapon. In 4th Edition he might well have powers that won't work effectively unless he uses a warhammer. Some of his feats might not function at all. So you can't realistically expect him to use any different weapon. In other words, <strong>ALL</strong> the magic weapons he finds need to be warhammers in order for them to be appropriate treasure, just as the cleric requires holy symbols that match his diety.</p><p> </p><p>In turn, if you're going to argue that clerics should be able to change any holy symbols they find to match whatever dieties they worship, then fighters should be able to convert any weapons they find to the type they're specialised in, wizards should be able to convert any implements they find to the type they're specialised in, and so forth.</p><p> </p><p>For the record, I'm not even saying this is necessarily a bad thing. Maybe letting fighters perform rediculous and unbelivable alterations to the weapons they find is not really a big deal. But if you're going to suggest such a thing for holy symbols, then you should realise the implications of what you're saying. It leads to a very slippery slope.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AverageTable, post: 4387033, member: 71718"] Let me start by saying that I completely sympathise with the issue of a PC being unable to use the holy symbols he finds unless he's permitted to alter them somehow. I myself was thinking about this just the other day and was having the same debate - "Do I make sure that every piece of equipment is of the kind the PCs need yet completely destroy the suspension of disbelief; or do I maintain versimilitude by filling treasure hoards with garbage they'll never use?" So trust that I understand the motivation behind all the suggestions like, "Let the cleric use a free ritual to 'reconsecrate' an incompatible holy symbol and magically 'morph' it into whatever type he needs." Yet to put things in perspective, here is exactly what you're suggesting: DM: You find a magic sword! :lol: Fighter: But I'm specialised in the warhammer! Is there some guy in town who can transform the sword into a warhammer? :.-( DM: You betcha! :D ----------------------------------- DM: You find a magic wand! :cool: Wizard: But I'm specialised in the orb! Can I perform a ritual to turn the wand into an orb? :eek: DM: Okie dokie! :p The point is that all classes suffer from this issue in different ways, not just the cleric. Can a fighter [i]use[/i] a sword even if he's specialised in the warhammer? Technically yes; but he's never going to [i]want[/i] to since he'll probably be [i]worse[/i] off doing so even if the sword is an objectively better weapon. In 4th Edition he might well have powers that won't work effectively unless he uses a warhammer. Some of his feats might not function at all. So you can't realistically expect him to use any different weapon. In other words, [b]ALL[/b] the magic weapons he finds need to be warhammers in order for them to be appropriate treasure, just as the cleric requires holy symbols that match his diety. In turn, if you're going to argue that clerics should be able to change any holy symbols they find to match whatever dieties they worship, then fighters should be able to convert any weapons they find to the type they're specialised in, wizards should be able to convert any implements they find to the type they're specialised in, and so forth. For the record, I'm not even saying this is necessarily a bad thing. Maybe letting fighters perform rediculous and unbelivable alterations to the weapons they find is not really a big deal. But if you're going to suggest such a thing for holy symbols, then you should realise the implications of what you're saying. It leads to a very slippery slope. [/QUOTE]
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