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How are you all finding the encounter building rules working out at higher levels?
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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6650948" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>[MENTION=6779717]Eric V[/MENTION]</p><p>Thanks for the shout-out <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Always happy to see my homebrew work get put to use.</p><p></p><p>As for your question: What sort of challenge would a demilich (CR 20) be for a party of six 12th level PCs?</p><p></p><p>First, there is the by-the-book answer (DMG pg. 82): Your party's Hard XP threshold is 18,000 and their Deadly XP threshold is 27,000. So strictly by the XP numbers your encounter is Hard. But you need to know more than just the XP numbers.</p><p></p><p>However, the DMG warns you to use caution when using a much higher CR than your party's level. And CR 20 vs. 12th levels certainly qualifies. </p><p></p><p>Second, you need to do the work comparing the proposed monster (demilich) to your PCs stats and abilities. I don't know your party's composition, but here is an example of the sort of pre-game work you need to do if you want to use an excessively higher CR monster. My litmus test if a monster is over-powered is if they could theoretically drop the party cleric on the first round of combat.</p><p></p><p>Let's say your party's 12th level cleric has 87 hit points and a Constitution save of +6. First round, let's see what happens if the Demilich focuses fire on the cleric. Be aware that a Con save +6 is generous, most likely your cleric doesn't have proficiency in Con saves and so his Con save is more like +2 or maybe +3.</p><p></p><p>Howl. DC 15 Con save. Cleric has a 40% chance of dropping to 0 hit points outright. If the cleric's Con save is +2 this jumps up to 60% chance which is probably higher than is fair.</p><p></p><p>If the demilich uses Vile Curse on the cleric first, imposing disadvantage on his saves, then that chan of dropping to 0 hit points goes up to maybe 55%. And if the cleric's Con save is +2 then you're looking at maybe a 75% chance of instantly dropping the cleric to 0 hit points - definitely hire than is fair.</p><p></p><p>Alternately, let's assume the demilich uses Flight or Cloud of Dust for defense, and hits the Cleric (and whoever else is nearby) with Energy Drain. Again the Cleric has a 40% chance of reducing his maximum HP by 10.</p><p></p><p>Now what about the Demilich's lair actions?</p><p></p><p>Well,the cleric already took 16 necrotic damage for entering the tomb for the first time assuming he is non-evil.</p><p></p><p>And the Demilich probably used one of the following lair actions, depending on how buffed the cleric is with spells/magic. If very buffed, the Demilich uses the anti magic field, but if not buffed much, the Demilich prevents healing.</p><p></p><p>So the +6 Con save cleric has a chance of still standing after the first round. The + 2 Con save cleric not so much.</p><p></p><p>That doesn't mean the demilich is going to be a fair Hard (or more likely Difficult) challenge for the party, but it means I wouldn't rule it out as fair outright. So in this case I would suggest you do your homework. Simulate a fight between the demilich and the party, and see what you discover.</p><p></p><p>My hunch is, with the Demilich's low hit points and great survivability, the stronger alpha strike the PCs can bring the less likely the demilich will prevail. However, the longer the battle goes, the more likely the odds will turn in the Demilich's favor. Generally speaking. Again, I don't know what your party is capable of. One of the deciding points may be the cleric's (or other healer's) con save</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 6650948, member: 20323"] [MENTION=6779717]Eric V[/MENTION] Thanks for the shout-out :) Always happy to see my homebrew work get put to use. As for your question: What sort of challenge would a demilich (CR 20) be for a party of six 12th level PCs? First, there is the by-the-book answer (DMG pg. 82): Your party's Hard XP threshold is 18,000 and their Deadly XP threshold is 27,000. So strictly by the XP numbers your encounter is Hard. But you need to know more than just the XP numbers. However, the DMG warns you to use caution when using a much higher CR than your party's level. And CR 20 vs. 12th levels certainly qualifies. Second, you need to do the work comparing the proposed monster (demilich) to your PCs stats and abilities. I don't know your party's composition, but here is an example of the sort of pre-game work you need to do if you want to use an excessively higher CR monster. My litmus test if a monster is over-powered is if they could theoretically drop the party cleric on the first round of combat. Let's say your party's 12th level cleric has 87 hit points and a Constitution save of +6. First round, let's see what happens if the Demilich focuses fire on the cleric. Be aware that a Con save +6 is generous, most likely your cleric doesn't have proficiency in Con saves and so his Con save is more like +2 or maybe +3. Howl. DC 15 Con save. Cleric has a 40% chance of dropping to 0 hit points outright. If the cleric's Con save is +2 this jumps up to 60% chance which is probably higher than is fair. If the demilich uses Vile Curse on the cleric first, imposing disadvantage on his saves, then that chan of dropping to 0 hit points goes up to maybe 55%. And if the cleric's Con save is +2 then you're looking at maybe a 75% chance of instantly dropping the cleric to 0 hit points - definitely hire than is fair. Alternately, let's assume the demilich uses Flight or Cloud of Dust for defense, and hits the Cleric (and whoever else is nearby) with Energy Drain. Again the Cleric has a 40% chance of reducing his maximum HP by 10. Now what about the Demilich's lair actions? Well,the cleric already took 16 necrotic damage for entering the tomb for the first time assuming he is non-evil. And the Demilich probably used one of the following lair actions, depending on how buffed the cleric is with spells/magic. If very buffed, the Demilich uses the anti magic field, but if not buffed much, the Demilich prevents healing. So the +6 Con save cleric has a chance of still standing after the first round. The + 2 Con save cleric not so much. That doesn't mean the demilich is going to be a fair Hard (or more likely Difficult) challenge for the party, but it means I wouldn't rule it out as fair outright. So in this case I would suggest you do your homework. Simulate a fight between the demilich and the party, and see what you discover. My hunch is, with the Demilich's low hit points and great survivability, the stronger alpha strike the PCs can bring the less likely the demilich will prevail. However, the longer the battle goes, the more likely the odds will turn in the Demilich's favor. Generally speaking. Again, I don't know what your party is capable of. One of the deciding points may be the cleric's (or other healer's) con save [/QUOTE]
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How are you all finding the encounter building rules working out at higher levels?
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