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How do Governments Align?
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<blockquote data-quote="GreenTengu" data-source="post: 6788248" data-attributes="member: 6777454"><p>Did you even think for ten seconds what you even wrote there? Put another way "being a selfish, egocentric, cut-throat, greedy, lying, cheat bastard generally should line up with being altruistic in the pie-in-the-sky idealistic views of some ancient thinkers who never actually saw the system in action."</p><p>So I guess when you think about if communism works, you decide the only possible sources are Marx and Lenin and screw any evidence that arises from seeing the actual system in actual action. Only early philosophers count!</p><p>Or do you just hold a complete double-standard on such things? I am guessing you are in the double-standard camp.</p><p></p><p>Real capitalism is real simple.</p><p>You can make more money this quarter by poisoning the water supply of this town? Do it! It is on them to clean up the mess.</p><p>You can produce cheap gas to sell across the nation, but the people in this town will have flammable gas? By all means, doing so is the "right" thing to do.</p><p>You can produce your goods more cheaply by firing all the workers and instead contracting slave labor in a foreign country or getting slave prison labor to do the work? There is no question about it, if you don't do this you are betraying capitalistic principles and traditions!</p><p>Removing as much actual "food" stuff from the "food" you are selling and pumping it full of chemicals that make it more visually appealing and make it as addictive as heroine? A brilliantly sound decision!</p><p>We can create a whole fake "holiday" around pretending our prices are lower by presenting a fake "normal" price that we would never sell the item for next to a "sale" price that is what we normally sell it for and bombarding them with advertising to play a psychological trick to get people to rush to the stores fighting and biting each other, trampling each other to death in order to buy stuff they don't want to give to people who don't want it either.... Halleujah, praise be to the invisible market hand!!</p><p></p><p>In fact, if you don't do these things to the full and complete extent you can, then your business fails and goes under. As capitalism says it should-- if you are not acting in your egomaniacal self-interest for short-term gain, then you deserve to lose and fail.</p><p></p><p>If once in a blue moon your own short-term self-interests just happen to line up with not cheating, lying to or killing other human beings, then certainly under those limited circumstances by all means you can avoid doing so. But most of the time? Getting ahead means hurting someone somewhere, and often all of us everywhere, in some manner in order to see that this quarter's profits bump up at least a few percentage points-- because if they don't, you will be the only one of your competitors that isn't doing so and your business will fail.</p><p></p><p>Fundamentally it is a system based on being evil for evil reasons. If any system in all of history can be called evil, it really has to be this. Doesn't mean it doesn't work, but just because something functions doesn't mean it isn't based on wholly immoral principles.</p><p></p><p>In fact, one more perfect example just in case you thought any of my examples about energy industry or industrial or food manufacturing examples could be rationalized away....</p><p>Diamonds.</p><p>You know what diamonds are? No, not what they have come to represent in culture. What they <strong>really</strong> are.</p><p>Compressed cubes of carbon. No unusual mix of odd elements that are unlikely to be found in just the right percentages... just... carbon. One of the most basic elements. In truth, compared to most gemstones, even compared to gold? Diamonds are not rare. You would never think that by looking at their value bought brand new on the market, but... no... they are actually pretty common when it comes to ranking of gemstones.</p><p></p><p>150 years ago, while they were appreciated, not to a particularly greater extent than most gemstones. The heart of Africa was full of them.</p><p>But, this company-- in the spirit of free market capitalism, went down to Africa and by hook or crook, by dollar or at the end of a gun took control of all the sources of diamonds. They created a monopoly over the supply. They then artificially restricted the supply by stockpiling them to inflate their price on the open market.</p><p></p><p>The genius is what they did next. They created a massive marketing campaign to lie to people that spending 2 months salary on a diamond is what all people are supposed to do when they get engaged. The crazy thing is... it worked! Now they were selling previously dirt cheap rocks at a premium and created an artificial demand that meant tens of thousands of people were spending 1/6th of their yearly salary on them every single year!</p><p></p><p>And since diamonds became the hottest commodity ever, meeting the demands and retaining control over the mines meant enslaving, butchering, and committing genocide against hundreds of thousands of people! The company has been involved with supporting warlords, topple governments and utterly impeding any progress towards democracy or civilization in the region in order to retain their unprecedented profits.</p><p></p><p>And people have been happily engaging in this for generations because....</p><p>A) People are in fact not rational nor informed and thus capitalism is evil because its most important fundamental premise is dead wrong.</p><p>or</p><p>B) Even if people are rational and informed, they are still fundamentally evil and more than happy to visit upon others the most horrific treatment in order to serve their "self interest"-- even if that self-interest is merely inflating their ego the slightest amount. Thus, capitalism is evil because it is created and engaged in by fundamentally evil people.</p><p></p><p>See, THAT is what capitalism is. THAT is what capitalism does. It is the only possible end result of the system, not some hippy-dippy daydreaming nonsense of an idiot philosopher who could only imagine his ideas resulting in good things because, after all, they were HIS ideas and so... how could anything he thought up possibly go wrong?</p><p></p><p>It is a system that rewards evil and punishes good behavior by absolute extremes. It drives people to the depths of depravity.</p><p></p><p>And to say that it can't be evil because people actually buy certain products willingly regardless of the harm it does them or don't try to flee from it, well... a bit of hard truth?</p><p>Most slaves don't seek to be free.</p><p>Most people in abusive relationships don't want out of them.</p><p>People who get kidnapped often end up sympathizing with their kidnappers.</p><p>People who have been sex trafficked from a young age often don't see anything wrong with their lives and don't think of themselves as being victims.</p><p></p><p>In pretty much all such cases, it is outsiders, not the people in those situations, who bring such situations to an end.</p><p></p><p>So just because people are used to something or can accept something or become accustomed to something and don't seek out to change it doesn't mean doing these acts to people isn't evil. The worst of things can be tolerated and accepted as soon as it becomes the norm for you. It is the rare individual who strives for something greater once they are comfortable.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GreenTengu, post: 6788248, member: 6777454"] Did you even think for ten seconds what you even wrote there? Put another way "being a selfish, egocentric, cut-throat, greedy, lying, cheat bastard generally should line up with being altruistic in the pie-in-the-sky idealistic views of some ancient thinkers who never actually saw the system in action." So I guess when you think about if communism works, you decide the only possible sources are Marx and Lenin and screw any evidence that arises from seeing the actual system in actual action. Only early philosophers count! Or do you just hold a complete double-standard on such things? I am guessing you are in the double-standard camp. Real capitalism is real simple. You can make more money this quarter by poisoning the water supply of this town? Do it! It is on them to clean up the mess. You can produce cheap gas to sell across the nation, but the people in this town will have flammable gas? By all means, doing so is the "right" thing to do. You can produce your goods more cheaply by firing all the workers and instead contracting slave labor in a foreign country or getting slave prison labor to do the work? There is no question about it, if you don't do this you are betraying capitalistic principles and traditions! Removing as much actual "food" stuff from the "food" you are selling and pumping it full of chemicals that make it more visually appealing and make it as addictive as heroine? A brilliantly sound decision! We can create a whole fake "holiday" around pretending our prices are lower by presenting a fake "normal" price that we would never sell the item for next to a "sale" price that is what we normally sell it for and bombarding them with advertising to play a psychological trick to get people to rush to the stores fighting and biting each other, trampling each other to death in order to buy stuff they don't want to give to people who don't want it either.... Halleujah, praise be to the invisible market hand!! In fact, if you don't do these things to the full and complete extent you can, then your business fails and goes under. As capitalism says it should-- if you are not acting in your egomaniacal self-interest for short-term gain, then you deserve to lose and fail. If once in a blue moon your own short-term self-interests just happen to line up with not cheating, lying to or killing other human beings, then certainly under those limited circumstances by all means you can avoid doing so. But most of the time? Getting ahead means hurting someone somewhere, and often all of us everywhere, in some manner in order to see that this quarter's profits bump up at least a few percentage points-- because if they don't, you will be the only one of your competitors that isn't doing so and your business will fail. Fundamentally it is a system based on being evil for evil reasons. If any system in all of history can be called evil, it really has to be this. Doesn't mean it doesn't work, but just because something functions doesn't mean it isn't based on wholly immoral principles. In fact, one more perfect example just in case you thought any of my examples about energy industry or industrial or food manufacturing examples could be rationalized away.... Diamonds. You know what diamonds are? No, not what they have come to represent in culture. What they [B]really[/B] are. Compressed cubes of carbon. No unusual mix of odd elements that are unlikely to be found in just the right percentages... just... carbon. One of the most basic elements. In truth, compared to most gemstones, even compared to gold? Diamonds are not rare. You would never think that by looking at their value bought brand new on the market, but... no... they are actually pretty common when it comes to ranking of gemstones. 150 years ago, while they were appreciated, not to a particularly greater extent than most gemstones. The heart of Africa was full of them. But, this company-- in the spirit of free market capitalism, went down to Africa and by hook or crook, by dollar or at the end of a gun took control of all the sources of diamonds. They created a monopoly over the supply. They then artificially restricted the supply by stockpiling them to inflate their price on the open market. The genius is what they did next. They created a massive marketing campaign to lie to people that spending 2 months salary on a diamond is what all people are supposed to do when they get engaged. The crazy thing is... it worked! Now they were selling previously dirt cheap rocks at a premium and created an artificial demand that meant tens of thousands of people were spending 1/6th of their yearly salary on them every single year! And since diamonds became the hottest commodity ever, meeting the demands and retaining control over the mines meant enslaving, butchering, and committing genocide against hundreds of thousands of people! The company has been involved with supporting warlords, topple governments and utterly impeding any progress towards democracy or civilization in the region in order to retain their unprecedented profits. And people have been happily engaging in this for generations because.... A) People are in fact not rational nor informed and thus capitalism is evil because its most important fundamental premise is dead wrong. or B) Even if people are rational and informed, they are still fundamentally evil and more than happy to visit upon others the most horrific treatment in order to serve their "self interest"-- even if that self-interest is merely inflating their ego the slightest amount. Thus, capitalism is evil because it is created and engaged in by fundamentally evil people. See, THAT is what capitalism is. THAT is what capitalism does. It is the only possible end result of the system, not some hippy-dippy daydreaming nonsense of an idiot philosopher who could only imagine his ideas resulting in good things because, after all, they were HIS ideas and so... how could anything he thought up possibly go wrong? It is a system that rewards evil and punishes good behavior by absolute extremes. It drives people to the depths of depravity. And to say that it can't be evil because people actually buy certain products willingly regardless of the harm it does them or don't try to flee from it, well... a bit of hard truth? Most slaves don't seek to be free. Most people in abusive relationships don't want out of them. People who get kidnapped often end up sympathizing with their kidnappers. People who have been sex trafficked from a young age often don't see anything wrong with their lives and don't think of themselves as being victims. In pretty much all such cases, it is outsiders, not the people in those situations, who bring such situations to an end. So just because people are used to something or can accept something or become accustomed to something and don't seek out to change it doesn't mean doing these acts to people isn't evil. The worst of things can be tolerated and accepted as soon as it becomes the norm for you. It is the rare individual who strives for something greater once they are comfortable. [/QUOTE]
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