Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Jeremy Ackerman-Yost" data-source="post: 4784203" data-attributes="member: 4720"><p>This has been a very interesting read that has killed productivity for me lately.</p><p></p><p>Thank you all.</p><p></p><p>I shall now attempt to incite further productivity death....</p><p></p><p></p><p>The difference between the PHB and DMG "philosophies" is not a bug, it's a feature.</p><p></p><p>The PHB gives you the tools to interact with an imagined world. Period. (included caveat: the DM can change this as needed). You need lots of those rules in place for reasons of depth and choice for the players. However, the PHB doesn't do a whole ton of parting the veil. It isn't necessarily intended for the players to think about "the physics engine" as it were. When you are playing a video game, if you stop and think about how the terrain is being rendered.... the game has failed to sell you the illusion. One could make a case that the same applies here. Ideally, the players shouldn't see the strings. In fact, it's more fun when they don't (IMO. When I want to interact with the strings, I'll DM). They really don't want to know when the DM fudged a dice roll to help them take out the BBEG, for example. The majority want to play a game, not meditate on a philosophical mountaintop about the meaning of narrativist versus simulationist tropes. In any case, the tropes that are readily available to them are all very gamist (if they choose to think of them as such).</p><p></p><p>The DMG, on the other hand, <em>lives</em> on the other side of the veil (or behind the curtain, if you prefer). The DM needs to be aware that there are things more important than the rules. The DM needs to spend a least a little cognitive power in a very meta place. He needs to see the strings, and pluck or pull the right ones as needed.</p><p></p><p>The problem is that people have taken the term "implied setting" to extravagant heights. They are also looking for some vast unity of principle for no discernible reason.</p><p></p><p>Vast unitary principles might be philosophically satisfying (to some), but they are not necessarily fun. (They can be fun. But they are not inherently so anymore than a polyglot is inherently badwrongfun)</p><p></p><p></p><p>You likely just broke the brain of many people who think they understand logic.</p><p></p><p>Which is reminding me of an old truism about people who understand binary....</p><p></p><p>While I'm on the subject of logic..... if the outcomes of events in your world are determined regularly by the rules of any game system I've ever seen or heard of.... your world is NOT "logical."</p><p></p><p>It may have been very logical and internally consistent before the player characters got there, but I'm sorry, there is no set of rules that won't dump logic down the rabbit hole fast.</p><p></p><p>Also... "logical" worlds are not realistic. Study history or psychology for 5 minutes and you realize that human beings and animals are not only really, really stupid, but defy expectations and logic with such consistency that one day we really, really need to start expecting it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I've bumped into more people who I could never get to play again "because the only classes worth playing have spells" than people who were obsessed with "believability" in their game about slaying orcs and dragons.</p><p></p><p>There may be a market issue there.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jeremy Ackerman-Yost, post: 4784203, member: 4720"] This has been a very interesting read that has killed productivity for me lately. Thank you all. I shall now attempt to incite further productivity death.... The difference between the PHB and DMG "philosophies" is not a bug, it's a feature. The PHB gives you the tools to interact with an imagined world. Period. (included caveat: the DM can change this as needed). You need lots of those rules in place for reasons of depth and choice for the players. However, the PHB doesn't do a whole ton of parting the veil. It isn't necessarily intended for the players to think about "the physics engine" as it were. When you are playing a video game, if you stop and think about how the terrain is being rendered.... the game has failed to sell you the illusion. One could make a case that the same applies here. Ideally, the players shouldn't see the strings. In fact, it's more fun when they don't (IMO. When I want to interact with the strings, I'll DM). They really don't want to know when the DM fudged a dice roll to help them take out the BBEG, for example. The majority want to play a game, not meditate on a philosophical mountaintop about the meaning of narrativist versus simulationist tropes. In any case, the tropes that are readily available to them are all very gamist (if they choose to think of them as such). The DMG, on the other hand, [I]lives[/I] on the other side of the veil (or behind the curtain, if you prefer). The DM needs to be aware that there are things more important than the rules. The DM needs to spend a least a little cognitive power in a very meta place. He needs to see the strings, and pluck or pull the right ones as needed. The problem is that people have taken the term "implied setting" to extravagant heights. They are also looking for some vast unity of principle for no discernible reason. Vast unitary principles might be philosophically satisfying (to some), but they are not necessarily fun. (They can be fun. But they are not inherently so anymore than a polyglot is inherently badwrongfun) You likely just broke the brain of many people who think they understand logic. Which is reminding me of an old truism about people who understand binary.... While I'm on the subject of logic..... if the outcomes of events in your world are determined regularly by the rules of any game system I've ever seen or heard of.... your world is NOT "logical." It may have been very logical and internally consistent before the player characters got there, but I'm sorry, there is no set of rules that won't dump logic down the rabbit hole fast. Also... "logical" worlds are not realistic. Study history or psychology for 5 minutes and you realize that human beings and animals are not only really, really stupid, but defy expectations and logic with such consistency that one day we really, really need to start expecting it. I've bumped into more people who I could never get to play again "because the only classes worth playing have spells" than people who were obsessed with "believability" in their game about slaying orcs and dragons. There may be a market issue there. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition
Top