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How Magical or Non-Magical Should the Monk Be?
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<blockquote data-quote="GreyICE" data-source="post: 6032972" data-attributes="member: 6684526"><p>No, the point doesn't remain. Wizards can be a better version of almost any other class in the game, and those they can't Clerics and Druids can manage to be a better version of. That's not the point.</p><p></p><p>The point is to compare two classes who are trying to do very similar things. There's actually four and a half classes who are trying to do the same thing in the 3.5 PHB - be a close range weapon-using damage dealer. Of them:</p><p></p><p><strong>The Barbarian</strong> - Clearly the highest damage, by far and away. Very tough and hard to kill. </p><p></p><p><strong>The Fighter </strong>- Built correctly, probably the toughest of the martial damage dealers. Their near-infinite well of feats gives them access to some very interesting (if highly repetitive and limited) tricks. The Dungeoncrasher variant is very good in, well, dungeons before level 8 or so. So yes they're narrow, but they can be tough and dish out the damage.</p><p></p><p><strong>Two Weapon Ranger </strong>- This is just kinda bad, but they do bring an animal companion and some spells. Wildshape Variant easily eclipses everything else here once level 5 is reached. </p><p></p><p><strong>Paladin</strong> - A bad fighter in many respects, and a classic example of too many tricks and not enough meat. Still have some good stuff, and the spell list isn't too awful. </p><p></p><p><strong>Monk </strong>- No spells. Hmm. Less damage than fighter, nevermind a Barbarian. Much less tough than a Fighter. 3/4 BAB so they miss all the time. And a collection of gizmos. This is... humiliating. They're about as effective as a rogue in combat (Flurry of Blows vs Backstab). And with none of the Rogue features that makes Rogues unique (well, until Factotems came along). </p><p></p><p></p><p>Look, you don't have to be more effective than a Wizard, Druid, or Cleric to be a real class. Each one of those should be banned at character creation if you're playing 3E or the party should be dragged up to their level. That's not the standard you measure classes by.</p><p></p><p>Measured by the standards of actual classes that</p><p></p><p>Monks DO belong in D&D. I said as much. But not the 3E monk, a bad unarmed fighter with a collection of random garbage. No. Not that at all. Monks belong in as a unique class that feels different from every other class on the battlefield and can hold their own whatever the circumstances.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GreyICE, post: 6032972, member: 6684526"] No, the point doesn't remain. Wizards can be a better version of almost any other class in the game, and those they can't Clerics and Druids can manage to be a better version of. That's not the point. The point is to compare two classes who are trying to do very similar things. There's actually four and a half classes who are trying to do the same thing in the 3.5 PHB - be a close range weapon-using damage dealer. Of them: [B]The Barbarian[/B] - Clearly the highest damage, by far and away. Very tough and hard to kill. [B]The Fighter [/B]- Built correctly, probably the toughest of the martial damage dealers. Their near-infinite well of feats gives them access to some very interesting (if highly repetitive and limited) tricks. The Dungeoncrasher variant is very good in, well, dungeons before level 8 or so. So yes they're narrow, but they can be tough and dish out the damage. [B]Two Weapon Ranger [/B]- This is just kinda bad, but they do bring an animal companion and some spells. Wildshape Variant easily eclipses everything else here once level 5 is reached. [B]Paladin[/B] - A bad fighter in many respects, and a classic example of too many tricks and not enough meat. Still have some good stuff, and the spell list isn't too awful. [B]Monk [/B]- No spells. Hmm. Less damage than fighter, nevermind a Barbarian. Much less tough than a Fighter. 3/4 BAB so they miss all the time. And a collection of gizmos. This is... humiliating. They're about as effective as a rogue in combat (Flurry of Blows vs Backstab). And with none of the Rogue features that makes Rogues unique (well, until Factotems came along). Look, you don't have to be more effective than a Wizard, Druid, or Cleric to be a real class. Each one of those should be banned at character creation if you're playing 3E or the party should be dragged up to their level. That's not the standard you measure classes by. Measured by the standards of actual classes that Monks DO belong in D&D. I said as much. But not the 3E monk, a bad unarmed fighter with a collection of random garbage. No. Not that at all. Monks belong in as a unique class that feels different from every other class on the battlefield and can hold their own whatever the circumstances. [/QUOTE]
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