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How Magical or Non-Magical Should the Monk Be?
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<blockquote data-quote="GreyICE" data-source="post: 6033017" data-attributes="member: 6684526"><p>@Tovac: Okay, lets compare Rogues to Monks</p><p></p><p><strong>In combat:</strong></p><p>3/4 BAB</p><p>Sneak Attack vs. Flurry of Blows</p><p>Magic Weapon vs. pseudo-magic weapon</p><p>Improved Evasion/Uncanny Dodge vs. Evasion</p><p>Opportunist vs. Flurry of Blows</p><p>Use Magic Device vs. A bunch of daily or weekly abilities. </p><p></p><p><strong>Out of Combat</strong></p><p>8 Skills base and one of the best skill lists in the game vs. 4 skills base and okay skills</p><p>The ability to disarm traps easily and safely (including magical traps) versus the ability to step on traps and avoid most conditionals (but take more damage)</p><p>The ability to use magical devices vs. the ability to fall down walls without taking damage</p><p></p><p></p><p>So what you're saying is the monk is either a really bad fighter in combat with marginally more utility out of combat, or an okay rogue in combat with infinitely, indescribably less utility outside of combat. </p><p></p><p>So in other words they're the worst class in the PHB, have no unique identity, and replaced their unique identity with a bag of mediocre tricks. </p><p></p><p>A ROGUE IS BETTER AT LIVING THAN A MONK!</p><p></p><p>Improved Uncanny Dodge versus nothing</p><p>Improved Evasion versus baseline Evasion</p><p>Use Magic Device gives them huge amounts of flexibility for niche situations</p><p></p><p>A BARBARIAN IS BETTER AT LIVING THAN A MONK</p><p></p><p>Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense versus Evasion</p><p>d12 vs d8 hit dice</p><p>More ability to raise Con versus MAD </p><p>Damage Reduction!</p><p>Rage!</p><p></p><p>OH YEAH AND THE MONK HAS TO MAKE A STANDARD ACTION TO BE RELIABLY HEALED OR CURED OR AFFECTED BY BUFFS OR ANY POSITIVE SPELL WHILE IN COMBAT</p><p></p><p></p><p>They're friggin terrible. There's no excuse for calling them a serious character class. The best thing you can say about them is that the DM typically leaves them alone because there's bigger threats, and thus they don't take damage very often (which is good, because in-combat healing is risky on them).</p><p></p><p>Now yes, it is very true that the best 4 man party of PHB classes is probably 2 Wizards, a Cleric, and a Druid. And the best 5 man party probably adds an extra druid, an extra wizard, or a bard (bards can do some unique things). But this isn't because of necessarily flawed design. It's due to flawed balance.</p><p></p><p>The Barbarian is legitimately a tough, dangerous combatant who deals the most damage of any martial class. It's just bad balancing that a Druid in Wildshape form and their animal companion can outdo that damage with ease. </p><p></p><p>The Fighter is legitimately a tough and flexible warrior. It's just bad balancing that none of that flexibility turned out to be all that flexible and that toughness was less than a Druid in Wildshape form with their armor/monk bracers (better on druids than monks! Quel surprise).</p><p></p><p>The Rogue is legitimately capable of doing things that no other class can with their skills and being a great secondary striker in combat alongside the frontline classes. It's just bad balancing that the Wizard gets spells that can replicate most of what the Rogue can do.</p><p></p><p>The Ranger and the Paladin do suffer from the "and the kitchen sink" school of design as well, in that they have a pile of mostly situational and useless abilities that make them MAD as heck but they still have the solid core of full BAB and magic weapons/armor. Although the Paladin gets a knock because they have literally zero dump stats. </p><p></p><p>It's no exaggeration. Read the Monk entry once, and ask yourself "what did they mean this class to do?" Read it twice, and three times, and ask that question again. You can't answer it. There's no design goals there.</p><p></p><p>We will not be sticking to the 3E vision of the monk because <strong>there is no 3E vision of the monk.</strong> Just a bunch of bad stereotypes drawn from Kung Fu the Legend Continues.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GreyICE, post: 6033017, member: 6684526"] @Tovac: Okay, lets compare Rogues to Monks [B]In combat:[/B] 3/4 BAB Sneak Attack vs. Flurry of Blows Magic Weapon vs. pseudo-magic weapon Improved Evasion/Uncanny Dodge vs. Evasion Opportunist vs. Flurry of Blows Use Magic Device vs. A bunch of daily or weekly abilities. [B]Out of Combat[/B] 8 Skills base and one of the best skill lists in the game vs. 4 skills base and okay skills The ability to disarm traps easily and safely (including magical traps) versus the ability to step on traps and avoid most conditionals (but take more damage) The ability to use magical devices vs. the ability to fall down walls without taking damage So what you're saying is the monk is either a really bad fighter in combat with marginally more utility out of combat, or an okay rogue in combat with infinitely, indescribably less utility outside of combat. So in other words they're the worst class in the PHB, have no unique identity, and replaced their unique identity with a bag of mediocre tricks. A ROGUE IS BETTER AT LIVING THAN A MONK! Improved Uncanny Dodge versus nothing Improved Evasion versus baseline Evasion Use Magic Device gives them huge amounts of flexibility for niche situations A BARBARIAN IS BETTER AT LIVING THAN A MONK Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense versus Evasion d12 vs d8 hit dice More ability to raise Con versus MAD Damage Reduction! Rage! OH YEAH AND THE MONK HAS TO MAKE A STANDARD ACTION TO BE RELIABLY HEALED OR CURED OR AFFECTED BY BUFFS OR ANY POSITIVE SPELL WHILE IN COMBAT They're friggin terrible. There's no excuse for calling them a serious character class. The best thing you can say about them is that the DM typically leaves them alone because there's bigger threats, and thus they don't take damage very often (which is good, because in-combat healing is risky on them). Now yes, it is very true that the best 4 man party of PHB classes is probably 2 Wizards, a Cleric, and a Druid. And the best 5 man party probably adds an extra druid, an extra wizard, or a bard (bards can do some unique things). But this isn't because of necessarily flawed design. It's due to flawed balance. The Barbarian is legitimately a tough, dangerous combatant who deals the most damage of any martial class. It's just bad balancing that a Druid in Wildshape form and their animal companion can outdo that damage with ease. The Fighter is legitimately a tough and flexible warrior. It's just bad balancing that none of that flexibility turned out to be all that flexible and that toughness was less than a Druid in Wildshape form with their armor/monk bracers (better on druids than monks! Quel surprise). The Rogue is legitimately capable of doing things that no other class can with their skills and being a great secondary striker in combat alongside the frontline classes. It's just bad balancing that the Wizard gets spells that can replicate most of what the Rogue can do. The Ranger and the Paladin do suffer from the "and the kitchen sink" school of design as well, in that they have a pile of mostly situational and useless abilities that make them MAD as heck but they still have the solid core of full BAB and magic weapons/armor. Although the Paladin gets a knock because they have literally zero dump stats. It's no exaggeration. Read the Monk entry once, and ask yourself "what did they mean this class to do?" Read it twice, and three times, and ask that question again. You can't answer it. There's no design goals there. We will not be sticking to the 3E vision of the monk because [B]there is no 3E vision of the monk.[/B] Just a bunch of bad stereotypes drawn from Kung Fu the Legend Continues. [/QUOTE]
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