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How Magical or Non-Magical Should the Monk Be?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6033179" data-attributes="member: 95493"><p>I've certainly had a player like that. It isn't just you. It is a problem, I guess, that GreyICE never had this experience.</p><p></p><p>But this is exactly what I'm saying. Monks have always been super-effective at being MONKS. They make horrible barbarians, wizards, or liches.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, so same BAB, check.</p><p>Sneak Attack vs. Flurry. Comparable in many ways.</p><p>Magic Weapon vs. Psudo-magic weapons. But the monk has the option of using magic weapons too, AND Boosting his fists. So I gotta give it to the monk.</p><p>Improved Evasion (which rogues have to buy) vs. Improved evasion (which monks get FIRST)</p><p>Uncanny Dodge vs. wis (and a minor class bonus) to AC. So, don't lose dex, vs. dex+wis(+minor class bonus) to AC.</p><p>Opportunist vs. stunning fist that can kill people.</p><p>UMD vs. several FREE extra bonus abilities, including self-healing. Thought slightly an apples to oranges comparison. Let's compare UMD to bardic music then?</p><p></p><p></p><p>8+int vs. 4+int. That is true, rogues win here. But then again, monks get 4+int which is more than the FIGHTERS you keep thinking they are, so I think I still win my point. Not to mention monks have a comparable list of skills to rogue, not fighter.</p><p>Disarm traps (easiness is based on DM) vs. avoiding them entirely or avoiding the effects.</p><p>UMD again? vs. several free abilities. Apples to oranges, again. If anything, add the skill to the monk's list, what is the problem here?</p><p></p><p></p><p>What I am saying is that the monk ISN'T a fighter. That any classes attempting to be a fighter are a bad fighter. I'm saying they fill (at best) the rogue slot. And even then they are a good 5th man (much like the bard). Beyond that, being an 'okay rogue' is good enough for me.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, they are one of the MOST unique classes in the PHB. But I will agree that they are generally a poorly designed class. I can give you suggestions on how to fix them if you like.</p><p></p><p>I am also saying they have MANY tricks that cannot be easily shoehorned into other classes in order to have that other class replace the uniqueness which is monk.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In what respects?</p><p></p><p>An 8th level rogue has improved uncanny dodge, which I have rarely seen used in any campaign. It is predicated upon a rogue not getting flanked, but any rogue worth their salt can tumble out of there. So can the monk, at the same level. Also, at 9th level monk has improved evasion, which the rogue doesn't.</p><p>Sigh, nope. Monk gets improved evasion at 9th, for free. Rogue gets it at 10th by spending a customization point. Which means they aren't getting that opportunist you talked about earlier.</p><p>So, to fix the monk all we have to do is give them UMD? Cool thanks GreyICE.</p><p></p><p></p><p>A Wizard is better at living than a barbarian</p><p></p><p></p><p>Changable Magic vs. Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense. Oh, did I mention that wizards(and monks for that matter) don't need to worry about being flanked all the time and they can certainly avoid it.</p><p></p><p>d4 vs. d12, I guess the wizard must suck now. Oh wait.</p><p></p><p>Monks are MAD, you have me there. Fix that for next time, WotC.</p><p>Barbarians can only up their CON (and STR), wizards can up everything. Therefore barbarians shouldn't exist.</p><p>Oh, also, Barbarians can raise their CON and fighters can't, so fighters shouldn't exist.</p><p></p><p>Not to be too technical, but monks get DR too. But monks aren't getting hit FASTER than barbarians get DR. Also, wizards <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p>Are we just yelling abilities now? Abundant Step!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay? So a monk takes a standard and is healed. A barbarian can't heal at all.</p><p></p><p>Also, a barbarian (after rage runs out) loses their HP. Because the barb's HP are actual HP, not temporary.</p><p></p><p>And? So?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, a DM can't just leave monks alone, because even if the monk is doing 1-2damage a round (which they would be doing much more but that is besides the point) the bad guys aren't doing 1-2 damage to the monk every round. So, even if the DM kills everyone else, the monk will remain and (eventually) win. Even if we use your idea that monks do almost no damage per round.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, an monks belong in that 5th man slot too. Bards are terrible. They are really bad characters. Are we going to axe them next?</p><p></p><p></p><p>So, barbarians can "defeat" monks, therefore monks should go away. Yet, druids can defeat barbarians, therefore barbarians should go away? And druids can defeat almost all other classes, therefore all those other classes should go away. You have convinced me GreyICE. Only druids should be classes.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, and that monk, which has a similar skill list, can't? And the monk isn't unique in what they can do?</p><p></p><p><s>I agree on that wizards can replicate other classes thing, let's fix the wizards too.</s> Oh wait, your idea isn't to fix classes it is to cut them. Wizards are too much work so let's just cut them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So, all classes need to pass a GreyICE litmus test in order to be a class? I never had a problem seeing what monks did. That is precisely what attracted me to them in the first place. Since playing them I have learned their deficiencies and and worked on correcting them or avoiding those issues when they arising.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I assume by 3e you will allow 3.5?</p><p><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm" target="_blank">Monk :: d20srd.org</a></p><p></p><p>Also, could we not apply the same (bold) argument to almost all other classes? Wizards are just a bunch of bad stereotypes drawn from the tales of Merlin.</p><p></p><p>Beyond that, how many classes don't even have a real analogous example to point to? Warlocks, sorcerers, bards, druids, paladins? Just to name a few. Why draw the line at monks?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tovec, post: 6033179, member: 95493"] I've certainly had a player like that. It isn't just you. It is a problem, I guess, that GreyICE never had this experience. But this is exactly what I'm saying. Monks have always been super-effective at being MONKS. They make horrible barbarians, wizards, or liches. Okay, so same BAB, check. Sneak Attack vs. Flurry. Comparable in many ways. Magic Weapon vs. Psudo-magic weapons. But the monk has the option of using magic weapons too, AND Boosting his fists. So I gotta give it to the monk. Improved Evasion (which rogues have to buy) vs. Improved evasion (which monks get FIRST) Uncanny Dodge vs. wis (and a minor class bonus) to AC. So, don't lose dex, vs. dex+wis(+minor class bonus) to AC. Opportunist vs. stunning fist that can kill people. UMD vs. several FREE extra bonus abilities, including self-healing. Thought slightly an apples to oranges comparison. Let's compare UMD to bardic music then? 8+int vs. 4+int. That is true, rogues win here. But then again, monks get 4+int which is more than the FIGHTERS you keep thinking they are, so I think I still win my point. Not to mention monks have a comparable list of skills to rogue, not fighter. Disarm traps (easiness is based on DM) vs. avoiding them entirely or avoiding the effects. UMD again? vs. several free abilities. Apples to oranges, again. If anything, add the skill to the monk's list, what is the problem here? What I am saying is that the monk ISN'T a fighter. That any classes attempting to be a fighter are a bad fighter. I'm saying they fill (at best) the rogue slot. And even then they are a good 5th man (much like the bard). Beyond that, being an 'okay rogue' is good enough for me. Actually, they are one of the MOST unique classes in the PHB. But I will agree that they are generally a poorly designed class. I can give you suggestions on how to fix them if you like. I am also saying they have MANY tricks that cannot be easily shoehorned into other classes in order to have that other class replace the uniqueness which is monk. In what respects? An 8th level rogue has improved uncanny dodge, which I have rarely seen used in any campaign. It is predicated upon a rogue not getting flanked, but any rogue worth their salt can tumble out of there. So can the monk, at the same level. Also, at 9th level monk has improved evasion, which the rogue doesn't. Sigh, nope. Monk gets improved evasion at 9th, for free. Rogue gets it at 10th by spending a customization point. Which means they aren't getting that opportunist you talked about earlier. So, to fix the monk all we have to do is give them UMD? Cool thanks GreyICE. A Wizard is better at living than a barbarian Changable Magic vs. Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense. Oh, did I mention that wizards(and monks for that matter) don't need to worry about being flanked all the time and they can certainly avoid it. d4 vs. d12, I guess the wizard must suck now. Oh wait. Monks are MAD, you have me there. Fix that for next time, WotC. Barbarians can only up their CON (and STR), wizards can up everything. Therefore barbarians shouldn't exist. Oh, also, Barbarians can raise their CON and fighters can't, so fighters shouldn't exist. Not to be too technical, but monks get DR too. But monks aren't getting hit FASTER than barbarians get DR. Also, wizards :P Are we just yelling abilities now? Abundant Step! Okay? So a monk takes a standard and is healed. A barbarian can't heal at all. Also, a barbarian (after rage runs out) loses their HP. Because the barb's HP are actual HP, not temporary. And? So? Actually, a DM can't just leave monks alone, because even if the monk is doing 1-2damage a round (which they would be doing much more but that is besides the point) the bad guys aren't doing 1-2 damage to the monk every round. So, even if the DM kills everyone else, the monk will remain and (eventually) win. Even if we use your idea that monks do almost no damage per round. Right, an monks belong in that 5th man slot too. Bards are terrible. They are really bad characters. Are we going to axe them next? So, barbarians can "defeat" monks, therefore monks should go away. Yet, druids can defeat barbarians, therefore barbarians should go away? And druids can defeat almost all other classes, therefore all those other classes should go away. You have convinced me GreyICE. Only druids should be classes. Okay, and that monk, which has a similar skill list, can't? And the monk isn't unique in what they can do? [s]I agree on that wizards can replicate other classes thing, let's fix the wizards too.[/s] Oh wait, your idea isn't to fix classes it is to cut them. Wizards are too much work so let's just cut them. So, all classes need to pass a GreyICE litmus test in order to be a class? I never had a problem seeing what monks did. That is precisely what attracted me to them in the first place. Since playing them I have learned their deficiencies and and worked on correcting them or avoiding those issues when they arising. I assume by 3e you will allow 3.5? [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm]Monk :: d20srd.org[/url] Also, could we not apply the same (bold) argument to almost all other classes? Wizards are just a bunch of bad stereotypes drawn from the tales of Merlin. Beyond that, how many classes don't even have a real analogous example to point to? Warlocks, sorcerers, bards, druids, paladins? Just to name a few. Why draw the line at monks? [/QUOTE]
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