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How Magical or Non-Magical Should the Monk Be?
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<blockquote data-quote="GreyICE" data-source="post: 6033180" data-attributes="member: 6684526"><p>Mmm, so lets discuss what makes the 3E monk unique. I'll go feature by feature:</p><p></p><p><strong>AC Bonus:</strong> Designed to scale similar to wearing armor. Not unique.</p><p><strong>Flurry of Blows:</strong> Extra attack, same as with 2 weapon fighting. Not unique.</p><p><strong>Unarmed Strike:</strong> Unique! Kinda. It's a weapon.</p><p><strong>Fast Movement:</strong> Barbarian, Druid, anyone with Haste spell, many magic boots.</p><p><strong>Ki Strike:</strong> Your fists! They be a magic weapon. Because those are unique.</p><p></p><p><strong><u>The "Random Immunity and Healing stuff" </u></strong></p><p><strong>Still Mind/Purity of Body/Diamond Body/Timeless Body:</strong> All various immunities. Druid has a bunch of these, and overall spells can do the same thing. They're just not very interesting. </p><p><strong>Wholeness of Body:</strong> Druid, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, all get similar. And anyone with a healing potion.</p><p><strong>Perfect Self:</strong> You stuck with 20 levels of monk! So you're now an outsider rather than a human (some spells affect you, others no longer do). Some mediocre damage resist that doesn't stack with magic items (which you should be dripping in by level 20). </p><p></p><p><strong><u>The "Wizard Spell, but worse" List</u></strong></p><p><strong>Slow Fall:</strong> You get a 1st level Wizard spell that affects only you! Wait, it only works near walls.</p><p><strong>Abundant Step:</strong> Can cast Dimension Door once per day, at 1/2 Wizard Caster Level. Only need to be level 12 to do this. </p><p><strong>Quivering Palm:</strong> Make an attack roll. If you succeed, creature rolls Save vs. Death or dies. Cooldown once per week. Only need to be level 15, which is when Wizards get EIGHTH LEVEL SPELLS. </p><p><strong>Diamond Body:</strong> You gain spell resistance like the 5th level spell Spell Resist. At least this one is semi-okay and almost level appropriate (wizards are only getting 6th level spells). </p><p><strong>Tongue of Sun and Moon:</strong> You can speak any language, like the 3rd level wizard spell Tongues. Wizards get access to Shapeshift here btw.</p><p><strong>Empty Body:</strong> Dear god, you get to actually use a 9th level wizard spell at level 19! Oh wait, it only works on you, not on the party, so 95% of the utility of the spell is gone, and it mostly lets you survive TPKs. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Look at this mess! You say you want to keep the things that make the Monk unique.</p><p></p><p><strong>There is nothing in here that's unique in any way. They reference the spells they're replicating in the Monk Entry.</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>A mobile combatant that flies around the battlefield and ties up creatures with a variety of damaging and disabling strikes is a unique concept. "A bunch of random spells and immunities" is not a unique concept.</p><p></p><p>Also just about zero of these have non-combat utility. Dimension Door can solve puzzles I guess. That's it. The monk is defined by combat in 3E. It's defined to be very bad at it.</p><p></p><p>Also here's why trap disarm golem monk fails:</p><p></p><p>Trap Disarm Monk: I walk forward, letting my ninjutsu lead the way. "Fireball trap." I leap backwards, agilely dodging the fireball. Wasn't that cool guys? Wasn't it? Why are you so charred? "Screw you, Monky."</p><p>Rogue: "I find and disarm the trap. No fireball."</p><p></p><p>Also you don't at all understand the problem with the Monk's spell resistance. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />It takes a standard action to turn it off. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />So if the Wizard or the Bard or the Cleric casts haste, the monk's spell resistance will attempt to cancel that spell. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />The only way to stop this is to take a standard action. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />So, to reiterate, the Monk's vaunted spell resist<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />makes other players spells not work on the monk. First time you go on a trip to another plane and the monk remains behind because? Well, you left behind a monk, who would notice?</p><p></p><p>If this is a team sport, the monk is the guy who grabs the ball out of his teammate's hands so he can be the one to make a shot at the basket... and then misses.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>P.S. The Rogue makes it to Tier 4 on the backbone of Use Magic Device, yes. The skill is just that good. Disarming magical traps is also something unique the Rogue does, but usually there's ways around them anyway.</p><p></p><p>P.P.S. Please, build me a 10th level Monk or something that's in some way effective, and show it to me. You keep telling me about these amazing Monks who do all these cool things, and I keep thinking "yeah, and you can do the same thing with a better class and ALSO be effective in combat." Until then, I say I can build a commoner that is twice as effective at being a monk than the monk class. So there. Monks are worse than commoners.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GreyICE, post: 6033180, member: 6684526"] Mmm, so lets discuss what makes the 3E monk unique. I'll go feature by feature: [B]AC Bonus:[/B] Designed to scale similar to wearing armor. Not unique. [B]Flurry of Blows:[/B] Extra attack, same as with 2 weapon fighting. Not unique. [B]Unarmed Strike:[/B] Unique! Kinda. It's a weapon. [B]Fast Movement:[/B] Barbarian, Druid, anyone with Haste spell, many magic boots. [B]Ki Strike:[/B] Your fists! They be a magic weapon. Because those are unique. [B][U]The "Random Immunity and Healing stuff" [/U][/B] [B]Still Mind/Purity of Body/Diamond Body/Timeless Body:[/B] All various immunities. Druid has a bunch of these, and overall spells can do the same thing. They're just not very interesting. [B]Wholeness of Body:[/B] Druid, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, all get similar. And anyone with a healing potion. [B]Perfect Self:[/B] You stuck with 20 levels of monk! So you're now an outsider rather than a human (some spells affect you, others no longer do). Some mediocre damage resist that doesn't stack with magic items (which you should be dripping in by level 20). [B][U]The "Wizard Spell, but worse" List[/U][/B] [B]Slow Fall:[/B] You get a 1st level Wizard spell that affects only you! Wait, it only works near walls. [B]Abundant Step:[/B] Can cast Dimension Door once per day, at 1/2 Wizard Caster Level. Only need to be level 12 to do this. [B]Quivering Palm:[/B] Make an attack roll. If you succeed, creature rolls Save vs. Death or dies. Cooldown once per week. Only need to be level 15, which is when Wizards get EIGHTH LEVEL SPELLS. [B]Diamond Body:[/B] You gain spell resistance like the 5th level spell Spell Resist. At least this one is semi-okay and almost level appropriate (wizards are only getting 6th level spells). [B]Tongue of Sun and Moon:[/B] You can speak any language, like the 3rd level wizard spell Tongues. Wizards get access to Shapeshift here btw. [B]Empty Body:[/B] Dear god, you get to actually use a 9th level wizard spell at level 19! Oh wait, it only works on you, not on the party, so 95% of the utility of the spell is gone, and it mostly lets you survive TPKs. Look at this mess! You say you want to keep the things that make the Monk unique. [B]There is nothing in here that's unique in any way. They reference the spells they're replicating in the Monk Entry.[/B] A mobile combatant that flies around the battlefield and ties up creatures with a variety of damaging and disabling strikes is a unique concept. "A bunch of random spells and immunities" is not a unique concept. Also just about zero of these have non-combat utility. Dimension Door can solve puzzles I guess. That's it. The monk is defined by combat in 3E. It's defined to be very bad at it. Also here's why trap disarm golem monk fails: Trap Disarm Monk: I walk forward, letting my ninjutsu lead the way. "Fireball trap." I leap backwards, agilely dodging the fireball. Wasn't that cool guys? Wasn't it? Why are you so charred? "Screw you, Monky." Rogue: "I find and disarm the trap. No fireball." Also you don't at all understand the problem with the Monk's spell resistance. :)It takes a standard action to turn it off. :)So if the Wizard or the Bard or the Cleric casts haste, the monk's spell resistance will attempt to cancel that spell. :)The only way to stop this is to take a standard action. :)So, to reiterate, the Monk's vaunted spell resist:)makes other players spells not work on the monk. First time you go on a trip to another plane and the monk remains behind because? Well, you left behind a monk, who would notice? If this is a team sport, the monk is the guy who grabs the ball out of his teammate's hands so he can be the one to make a shot at the basket... and then misses. P.S. The Rogue makes it to Tier 4 on the backbone of Use Magic Device, yes. The skill is just that good. Disarming magical traps is also something unique the Rogue does, but usually there's ways around them anyway. P.P.S. Please, build me a 10th level Monk or something that's in some way effective, and show it to me. You keep telling me about these amazing Monks who do all these cool things, and I keep thinking "yeah, and you can do the same thing with a better class and ALSO be effective in combat." Until then, I say I can build a commoner that is twice as effective at being a monk than the monk class. So there. Monks are worse than commoners. [/QUOTE]
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