Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
How many (ancient) dragons would it take to destroy a (dwarven) city?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 6412845" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>This is my point. A lot of people go to a dice roll game mechanic to answer the question instead of going to common sense for a given campaign world.</p><p></p><p>If almost nobody in the entire campaign world knows that much about evil dragons (because evil dragons kill most humanoids that they meet), then there is no DC high enough to set for a DM. NPCs just do not know anything accurate about dragons (other than they are nasty, kill stuff, can fly, and have breath weapons, all things that can be noticed from a long presumably safe distance).</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, there would be a lot of inaccurate rumors about what dragons could do.</p><p></p><p>But you are thinking in game mechanics terms "What is the DC for monster knowledge about dragons?" instead of PC/NPC campaign knowledge terms "What rumors or information, accurate or inaccurate, exists in this campaign world about dragons?".</p><p></p><p>I think that part of this mindset came from the 4E designers who encouraged players having a ton of always accurate knowledge about the creatures that they fought. But the knowledge does not make sense. A bunch of wet behind the ears adventurers know all of this accurate information about monsters who typically kill whomever they encounter. But these same adventurers do not know any inaccurate information about these same creatures.</p><p></p><p>Did these adventurers go to monster school? How do they even recoginize the difference between a Goblin Thorn and a Goblin Sniper (both artillery with shortbows) such that they know that a Goblin Thorn can shift if it hits with a ranged attack and a hidden Goblin Sniper can remain hidden if it misses?</p><p></p><p>It's totally nonsensical.</p><p></p><p>In the real world, people have a general idea of how some things like cars and laptops and printing presses work because of education (and to a lesser degree the proliferation of the Internet), but ask someone details like have them repair a car or a laptop and most people are basically clueless. How much more clueless should a society be where very few people actually survive encounters with monsters, there is no level of education beyond basic skills and a single specific trade or profession, information tends to be local, and any information that is not local is spread from village to village by mostly merchants?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, because every Dwarven city has a bunch of Iron Golems in their back pockets. Every trap that Dwarves set for Dragons are going to work and not be sussed out by an 18 Int creature. If a Dragon is trapped, it won't escape before an Iron Golem gets to the part of the city to attack it.</p><p></p><p>I would think that even in the unlikely scenario you describe, that the 18 Int 30 Str ancient dragon could grab the much smaller and weaker 3 Int 24 Str Iron Golem and use it as a weapon to break itself out of most types of traps. Sure, the golem could damage the dragon while the dragon is doing this, but the dragon could probably escape.</p><p></p><p>Alternatively, all the dragon technically has to do is have a good sized piece of ceiling drop on the golem, it then lies down on the rock. The golem is too weak to lift the rock and weight of the dragon off of itself and cannot use its breath weapon through cover.</p><p></p><p>Oh yeah, and Dwarves know all about Dragons with knowledge checks, but Dragons know nothing about Dwarves with knowledge checks.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I just find your scenario to be implausible. It makes more sense that an ancient dragon would kick the snot out of any dwarven city it came across and the dwarves wouldn't have the absolute best possible trap designed for a given type of ancient dragon.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 6412845, member: 2011"] This is my point. A lot of people go to a dice roll game mechanic to answer the question instead of going to common sense for a given campaign world. If almost nobody in the entire campaign world knows that much about evil dragons (because evil dragons kill most humanoids that they meet), then there is no DC high enough to set for a DM. NPCs just do not know anything accurate about dragons (other than they are nasty, kill stuff, can fly, and have breath weapons, all things that can be noticed from a long presumably safe distance). On the other hand, there would be a lot of inaccurate rumors about what dragons could do. But you are thinking in game mechanics terms "What is the DC for monster knowledge about dragons?" instead of PC/NPC campaign knowledge terms "What rumors or information, accurate or inaccurate, exists in this campaign world about dragons?". I think that part of this mindset came from the 4E designers who encouraged players having a ton of always accurate knowledge about the creatures that they fought. But the knowledge does not make sense. A bunch of wet behind the ears adventurers know all of this accurate information about monsters who typically kill whomever they encounter. But these same adventurers do not know any inaccurate information about these same creatures. Did these adventurers go to monster school? How do they even recoginize the difference between a Goblin Thorn and a Goblin Sniper (both artillery with shortbows) such that they know that a Goblin Thorn can shift if it hits with a ranged attack and a hidden Goblin Sniper can remain hidden if it misses? It's totally nonsensical. In the real world, people have a general idea of how some things like cars and laptops and printing presses work because of education (and to a lesser degree the proliferation of the Internet), but ask someone details like have them repair a car or a laptop and most people are basically clueless. How much more clueless should a society be where very few people actually survive encounters with monsters, there is no level of education beyond basic skills and a single specific trade or profession, information tends to be local, and any information that is not local is spread from village to village by mostly merchants? Yeah, because every Dwarven city has a bunch of Iron Golems in their back pockets. Every trap that Dwarves set for Dragons are going to work and not be sussed out by an 18 Int creature. If a Dragon is trapped, it won't escape before an Iron Golem gets to the part of the city to attack it. I would think that even in the unlikely scenario you describe, that the 18 Int 30 Str ancient dragon could grab the much smaller and weaker 3 Int 24 Str Iron Golem and use it as a weapon to break itself out of most types of traps. Sure, the golem could damage the dragon while the dragon is doing this, but the dragon could probably escape. Alternatively, all the dragon technically has to do is have a good sized piece of ceiling drop on the golem, it then lies down on the rock. The golem is too weak to lift the rock and weight of the dragon off of itself and cannot use its breath weapon through cover. Oh yeah, and Dwarves know all about Dragons with knowledge checks, but Dragons know nothing about Dwarves with knowledge checks. I just find your scenario to be implausible. It makes more sense that an ancient dragon would kick the snot out of any dwarven city it came across and the dwarves wouldn't have the absolute best possible trap designed for a given type of ancient dragon. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
How many (ancient) dragons would it take to destroy a (dwarven) city?
Top