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How many roles should there be?
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<blockquote data-quote="FalcWP" data-source="post: 5821206" data-attributes="member: 16858"><p>A few thoughts I've had from reading this:</p><p></p><p>1) "Roles restrict roleplaying" seems to be a common complaint. I do not get this at all. Generally, when I come up with a character for a game (if it's one that's going to feature a good amount of RP, as opposed to just hack and slash), I come up with the concept first. </p><p></p><p>Most recently, this was a swashbuckler for our freshly started Zeitgeist campaign. I wanted a dashing, charismatic fellow who was good with a blade. I didn't really consider his role or his class at the start, and toyed with several builds across three different roles (Paladin - Defender, Rogue - Striker, Bard - Leader). Every time it was the same character. I could roleplay him exactly the same way no matter which of those roles I chose. He's still going to respond to circumstances the same - the only difference is what abilities he has in combat. </p><p></p><p>Similarly, I can have two characters of exactly the same role who are very different to roleplay. My Dwarven Paladin of Moradin plays quite differently from my swashbuckling Human Paladin plays differently from my Swordmage plays differently from the Gnoll Fighter someone plays in another of my games plays differently from...</p><p></p><p>2) A lot of people seem to think classes get shoehorned in to roles and that's that. They look at a character that in previous editions would have been a Fighter, and now a Fighter is a defender, so they have to play a defender. They look right past the fact that, just because a character WOULD HAVE BEEN a Fighter in one edition, it could work a lot better as a different class (with the EXACT SAME RP FLAVOR) in 4E. Similar to point one, I think the big thing is to get your concept, then figure out the best class/role to fill it. If your 'concept' for a D&D game is 'I'm going to be a Fighter who is good with a greatsword' and that's that, I'd call it a pretty weak concept. If it's 'I'm going to be a warrior who is good with a greatsword'... well, it does open up a lot of other options.</p><p></p><p>3) Roles provide balance and structure to class design. Every Striker will have a way to dish out extra damage, every Defender a way to encourage enemies to attack him, every Leader a way to heal their allies during combat. Some people don't like balanced classes, and that's cool - it means 4E wasn't the system for you. I personally love it, and that means 4E *was* the system for me. The Role structure also made it easy to come up with homebrew stuff that was balanced - it gave me half a dozen or so classes that I knew were mostly balanced against each other to work from. </p><p></p><p>4) Roles are about combat actions. Out of combat stuff, roles shouldn't matter much if at all. Roles should generally not be tied to skills (something 4E didn't get right, I think - several skills are not often available by default to most members of a role).</p><p></p><p>5) What roles should exist? I'd say:</p><p></p><p>-Defender/Tank. Someone who absorbs attacks to protect the rest of the group. Might be done by a warrior with a shield drawing and blocking attacks, a spellcaster casting protective wards, a holy warrior who is protected by his faith and his god, a berserker taking every attack and staying upright, a nimble swashbuckler dodging each blow, or a summoned creature/pet that a party member controls.</p><p></p><p>-Leader/Buffer/Healer/Support guy. Someone who keeps the group fighting well. Might be done by a spellcaster casting magic spells to heal someone or improve their abilities, a trained medic patching wounds, an officer rallying the troops, or a minstrel lifting spirits.</p><p></p><p>-Striker/Damage-Dealer/DPS. Someone who deals as much harm to the enemy as possible. Might be done by a warrior using a large axe and charging headlong in to the fight, a fellow moving in to stab someone from behind with a dagger, an expert archer, a spellcaster casting fireballs, a different spellcaster summoning minions to do his bidding, or a beastmaster whose animal friends savagely attack at his command.</p><p></p><p>-"Controller" goes away, with his toys getting handed out - strikers get a lot of the AoE, and everyone gets a bit of movement and debuff ability.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FalcWP, post: 5821206, member: 16858"] A few thoughts I've had from reading this: 1) "Roles restrict roleplaying" seems to be a common complaint. I do not get this at all. Generally, when I come up with a character for a game (if it's one that's going to feature a good amount of RP, as opposed to just hack and slash), I come up with the concept first. Most recently, this was a swashbuckler for our freshly started Zeitgeist campaign. I wanted a dashing, charismatic fellow who was good with a blade. I didn't really consider his role or his class at the start, and toyed with several builds across three different roles (Paladin - Defender, Rogue - Striker, Bard - Leader). Every time it was the same character. I could roleplay him exactly the same way no matter which of those roles I chose. He's still going to respond to circumstances the same - the only difference is what abilities he has in combat. Similarly, I can have two characters of exactly the same role who are very different to roleplay. My Dwarven Paladin of Moradin plays quite differently from my swashbuckling Human Paladin plays differently from my Swordmage plays differently from the Gnoll Fighter someone plays in another of my games plays differently from... 2) A lot of people seem to think classes get shoehorned in to roles and that's that. They look at a character that in previous editions would have been a Fighter, and now a Fighter is a defender, so they have to play a defender. They look right past the fact that, just because a character WOULD HAVE BEEN a Fighter in one edition, it could work a lot better as a different class (with the EXACT SAME RP FLAVOR) in 4E. Similar to point one, I think the big thing is to get your concept, then figure out the best class/role to fill it. If your 'concept' for a D&D game is 'I'm going to be a Fighter who is good with a greatsword' and that's that, I'd call it a pretty weak concept. If it's 'I'm going to be a warrior who is good with a greatsword'... well, it does open up a lot of other options. 3) Roles provide balance and structure to class design. Every Striker will have a way to dish out extra damage, every Defender a way to encourage enemies to attack him, every Leader a way to heal their allies during combat. Some people don't like balanced classes, and that's cool - it means 4E wasn't the system for you. I personally love it, and that means 4E *was* the system for me. The Role structure also made it easy to come up with homebrew stuff that was balanced - it gave me half a dozen or so classes that I knew were mostly balanced against each other to work from. 4) Roles are about combat actions. Out of combat stuff, roles shouldn't matter much if at all. Roles should generally not be tied to skills (something 4E didn't get right, I think - several skills are not often available by default to most members of a role). 5) What roles should exist? I'd say: -Defender/Tank. Someone who absorbs attacks to protect the rest of the group. Might be done by a warrior with a shield drawing and blocking attacks, a spellcaster casting protective wards, a holy warrior who is protected by his faith and his god, a berserker taking every attack and staying upright, a nimble swashbuckler dodging each blow, or a summoned creature/pet that a party member controls. -Leader/Buffer/Healer/Support guy. Someone who keeps the group fighting well. Might be done by a spellcaster casting magic spells to heal someone or improve their abilities, a trained medic patching wounds, an officer rallying the troops, or a minstrel lifting spirits. -Striker/Damage-Dealer/DPS. Someone who deals as much harm to the enemy as possible. Might be done by a warrior using a large axe and charging headlong in to the fight, a fellow moving in to stab someone from behind with a dagger, an expert archer, a spellcaster casting fireballs, a different spellcaster summoning minions to do his bidding, or a beastmaster whose animal friends savagely attack at his command. -"Controller" goes away, with his toys getting handed out - strikers get a lot of the AoE, and everyone gets a bit of movement and debuff ability. [/QUOTE]
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