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How much can Spot, uh, spot?
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<blockquote data-quote="Jeff Wilder" data-source="post: 1296156" data-attributes="member: 5122"><p>IMO, many DMs allow too much information from a Spot check, where it would instead be appropriate to either limit the information or require another skill entirely.</p><p></p><p>Here's a f'r'instance:</p><p></p><p>There's a narrow stone bridge, 10' wide and 50' long, over a river rushing below. There is a simple, and typically Elven in construction, guardhouse at either end of the bridge. The PCs know the road over the bridge leads into an ancient wood populated by the elves of a friendly kingdom. They're trying to reach that kingdom.</p><p></p><p>What the PCs don't know is that a pair of unusually bright ogres have killed all but two elven spearguards -- leaving one for each guardhouse -- and are charging a selective toll for passage over the bridge. (I.e., they don't charge people that look too tough.) The ogres stay hidden in the guardhouses until their presence is necessary. They've cowed the remaining guards into "playacting" that all is well. They've taken the guards' weapons, but left them their armor. The ogres have also removed the solid, but ornate, railing that used to make the bridge safer. (They figure it's give them a huge advantage in a fight on the bridge.)</p><p></p><p>So here come the PCs, up to the elven guard. What rolls should be asked for, to notice what?</p><p></p><p>Most DMs (in my experience) would call for immediate Spot rolls (or make them secretly himself) to notice, e.g., the elf sweating (<em>do</em> elves sweat?), the elf being without weapons, the ogre peeking out of the guardhouse, and the missing bridge railings.</p><p></p><p>I think that's way too generous. I do agree that Spot is a passive skill (as opposed to Search, e.g., which is active), but that's exactly why I think its use needs to be more restricted than most people play it. I think <em>most</em> "not completely obvious" stuff should depend on a combination of player actions and more active skills.</p><p></p><p>So how would I do the above?</p><p></p><p>As the party approached the guardhouse, if they were specifically being cautious I would give them a Spot check to notice the peeking ogre. I'd DM the elf as being a little nervous -- without hamming it up -- and if a player asks I'd allow a Sense Motive roll to figure out something was up. If a player speaks Elven to the guard, prompting a reply in Elven, I'd allow a Listen check to catch that the guard is offering a subtle warning, and is frightened. I'd allow a martial PC or an elf to notice (with a Spot) check, the lack of weapons. If they specifically looked over the guardhouse (from outside), I'd allow a Search check. Same for the bridge, to notice the missing railing. (I'd also allow an appropriate Knowledge check.)</p><p></p><p>What do people think? Am I crippling Spot? Making the other skills too valuable? Relying too much on PC backgrounds and actions? Or am I right that Spot is often way overused?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jeff Wilder, post: 1296156, member: 5122"] IMO, many DMs allow too much information from a Spot check, where it would instead be appropriate to either limit the information or require another skill entirely. Here's a f'r'instance: There's a narrow stone bridge, 10' wide and 50' long, over a river rushing below. There is a simple, and typically Elven in construction, guardhouse at either end of the bridge. The PCs know the road over the bridge leads into an ancient wood populated by the elves of a friendly kingdom. They're trying to reach that kingdom. What the PCs don't know is that a pair of unusually bright ogres have killed all but two elven spearguards -- leaving one for each guardhouse -- and are charging a selective toll for passage over the bridge. (I.e., they don't charge people that look too tough.) The ogres stay hidden in the guardhouses until their presence is necessary. They've cowed the remaining guards into "playacting" that all is well. They've taken the guards' weapons, but left them their armor. The ogres have also removed the solid, but ornate, railing that used to make the bridge safer. (They figure it's give them a huge advantage in a fight on the bridge.) So here come the PCs, up to the elven guard. What rolls should be asked for, to notice what? Most DMs (in my experience) would call for immediate Spot rolls (or make them secretly himself) to notice, e.g., the elf sweating ([i]do[/i] elves sweat?), the elf being without weapons, the ogre peeking out of the guardhouse, and the missing bridge railings. I think that's way too generous. I do agree that Spot is a passive skill (as opposed to Search, e.g., which is active), but that's exactly why I think its use needs to be more restricted than most people play it. I think [i]most[/i] "not completely obvious" stuff should depend on a combination of player actions and more active skills. So how would I do the above? As the party approached the guardhouse, if they were specifically being cautious I would give them a Spot check to notice the peeking ogre. I'd DM the elf as being a little nervous -- without hamming it up -- and if a player asks I'd allow a Sense Motive roll to figure out something was up. If a player speaks Elven to the guard, prompting a reply in Elven, I'd allow a Listen check to catch that the guard is offering a subtle warning, and is frightened. I'd allow a martial PC or an elf to notice (with a Spot) check, the lack of weapons. If they specifically looked over the guardhouse (from outside), I'd allow a Search check. Same for the bridge, to notice the missing railing. (I'd also allow an appropriate Knowledge check.) What do people think? Am I crippling Spot? Making the other skills too valuable? Relying too much on PC backgrounds and actions? Or am I right that Spot is often way overused? [/QUOTE]
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