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How much can Spot, uh, spot?
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<blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1296276" data-attributes="member: 3146"><p>I would figure that, in this instance, spot would be useful for several things:</p><p></p><p>1. Noticing that the guardrail had been removed recently. (This would, at the very least, have left empty postholes or bolts on the bridge if it were removed carefully--and, given ogres' typical carelessness, might have left small stumps of railing where they broke or hacked it off).</p><p></p><p>2. To notice the ogres peering at them from inside the guardhouses. This would probably be a rather difficult spot check but it would be conceivable.</p><p></p><p>3. Possibly--to notice bloodstains or signs of a recent conflict when the guards were killed--if that was recent.</p><p></p><p>4. Again, possibly--to notice signs of injury on the gate-guards. Alternatively, I might just include that in the description. "A tall elf wearing a somewhat battered suit of scale mail and sporting a deep cut over his left eye steps out into the causeway...."</p><p></p><p>Things I wouldn't use the spot check for:</p><p></p><p>Noticing that the guards are nervous (or noticing signs of nervousness). That's what sense motive is for.</p><p></p><p>Noticing that the guards are unarmed. I think I'd include that in the description as well.</p><p></p><p>Listen checks might well be appropriate as well to hear the ogres shifting position inside the guardhouse.</p><p></p><p>Why all the skill checks without the PCs' asking anything?</p><p></p><p>Well, D&D is a game of shared illusion. Players depend upon the DM to tell them what their characters see and have to interact with the world based upon that window. In this situation, there are clearly some things that might make characters nervous. If the DM doesn't describe them without prompting from the players, he encourages the players to constantly prompt him--even in situations where caution is not warranted--because they will know that they cannot tell the difference between a dangerous, hinky, situation and a normal one based upon the DM's descriptions. That slows down the game a lot. It would also have the effect of transferring all caution from the characters onto the players. If the 15th level ranger is oblivious to his surroundings unless his player asks all the specific questions ("Is there anything unusual about the bridge? Are the guards armed? Do they look nervous? Can I catch a glimpse of anything inside the guardhouse" etc), there is less in-game difference between the 15th level fighter with no ranks in spot whose player knows what questions to ask and the 15th level ranger with maxed spot whose player doesn't know the right questions. The way to get information that the character would notice is then not to have the right skills but to ask the DM the right questions. (It's the same way with Sense Motive and asking something like "are the elves sweating too much for the temperature and their gear?" If you let that question work, the player interprets the result with his sense motive skill instead of letting the character interpret the events with his sense motive skill).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Elder-Basilisk, post: 1296276, member: 3146"] I would figure that, in this instance, spot would be useful for several things: 1. Noticing that the guardrail had been removed recently. (This would, at the very least, have left empty postholes or bolts on the bridge if it were removed carefully--and, given ogres' typical carelessness, might have left small stumps of railing where they broke or hacked it off). 2. To notice the ogres peering at them from inside the guardhouses. This would probably be a rather difficult spot check but it would be conceivable. 3. Possibly--to notice bloodstains or signs of a recent conflict when the guards were killed--if that was recent. 4. Again, possibly--to notice signs of injury on the gate-guards. Alternatively, I might just include that in the description. "A tall elf wearing a somewhat battered suit of scale mail and sporting a deep cut over his left eye steps out into the causeway...." Things I wouldn't use the spot check for: Noticing that the guards are nervous (or noticing signs of nervousness). That's what sense motive is for. Noticing that the guards are unarmed. I think I'd include that in the description as well. Listen checks might well be appropriate as well to hear the ogres shifting position inside the guardhouse. Why all the skill checks without the PCs' asking anything? Well, D&D is a game of shared illusion. Players depend upon the DM to tell them what their characters see and have to interact with the world based upon that window. In this situation, there are clearly some things that might make characters nervous. If the DM doesn't describe them without prompting from the players, he encourages the players to constantly prompt him--even in situations where caution is not warranted--because they will know that they cannot tell the difference between a dangerous, hinky, situation and a normal one based upon the DM's descriptions. That slows down the game a lot. It would also have the effect of transferring all caution from the characters onto the players. If the 15th level ranger is oblivious to his surroundings unless his player asks all the specific questions ("Is there anything unusual about the bridge? Are the guards armed? Do they look nervous? Can I catch a glimpse of anything inside the guardhouse" etc), there is less in-game difference between the 15th level fighter with no ranks in spot whose player knows what questions to ask and the 15th level ranger with maxed spot whose player doesn't know the right questions. The way to get information that the character would notice is then not to have the right skills but to ask the DM the right questions. (It's the same way with Sense Motive and asking something like "are the elves sweating too much for the temperature and their gear?" If you let that question work, the player interprets the result with his sense motive skill instead of letting the character interpret the events with his sense motive skill). [/QUOTE]
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