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How much should 5e aim at balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5984603" data-attributes="member: 83768"><p>If by balance, you mean 4E style balance where all the math is so carefully tuned to provide some sort of "perfect" encounter length, encounters per day, damage per round, powers per day, etc. among all monsters and player's characters... then no. For god's sake, please no. </p><p></p><p>I played 4E for the first time in 2 years this past Saturday and it was mind-numbing how "balanced" everything was. Everything was so... predictable. </p><p></p><p>That's not what I enjoy about D&D. </p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>If </strong>by "balance" you mean everyone has a unique set of abilities to bring to the table and that each member of the team relies on each other for various things, instead of having one character who can do it all, then yes! Please. Bring it on. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>If </strong>by "balance" you mean the game functions as you expect it would in a plausible game universe without breaking down the fun or having powers that disrupt the flow of the game, then yes! Do that! </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>If </strong>by "balance" you mean having weighted options that give a player a variety of decisions to make that all seem like worthwhile avenues of approach, then yes!</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>If</strong> you mean "balancing" the game so that the DM has tools for being the judge / arbiter / referee of the game in a fair and honest way, then by all means! Yes! </p><p></p><p>Balance is important to game design. But, not in the way 4E balanced things. This idea that balance is somehow 4E's domain is complete and utter garbage. Gary Gygax was always big on balance and mentioned it all the time in his text. </p><p></p><p>See: </p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">1E DMG p7: "Limitations, checks, balances, and all the rest are placed into the system in order to assure that what is based thereon will be a superior campaign, a campaign which offers the most interesting play possibilities to the greatest number of participants for the longest period of time possible. ... If it is all too plain and too easy, the players will quickly lose interest, and your effort will prove to have been in vain. Likewise, if the campaign is too difficult, players will quickly become discouraged and lose interest in a game where they are always the butt; again your labors will have been for naught. These facts are of prime importance, for they underlie many rules."</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">1E DMG p81: "DM Stipulations: You may assign modifiers to any saving thvows as you see fit, always keeping in mind game balance."</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">1E DMG p84: "Tricking or outwitting monsters or overcoming tricks and/or traps placed to guard treasure must be determined subjectively, with level of experience balanced against the degree of difficulty you assign to the gaining of the treasure."</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">1E DMG p90: "You may, of course, adiust any prices and costs as you see fit for your own milieu. Be careful to observe the effects of such changes on both play balance and player involvement."</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">1E DMG p91: "Alter creatures freely, remembering balance. Hit dice, armor class, attacks and domage, magical and psionic powers are all mutable; and after players become used to the standard types o few ringers will make them a bit less sure of things."</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">1E DMG p92: "All this is not to actually penalize success. It is a logical abstraction of their actions, it stimulates them to adventure anew, and it also maintains the campaign in balance." </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">1E DMG p93: "As the campaign grows and deeper dungeons are developed, you exercise the same care in placement of selected and balanced magic items. Of course, at lower levels of the dungeon you have more powerful single items or groupings of disparate items, but they are commensurate with the challenge and ability of participants."</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">1E DMG p118: "All such creations, however, must be made with care. The items must be such as to not unbalance the game. They must not make one player character too strong, either with respect to opponents or his or her fellows or to the campaign or to the game system as a whole. Items which are expended after a single use, those with limited usages, and those with variable effects are most desirable."</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">1E DMG p120: "This is carefully planned so as to prevent imbalance in the game. Keep potent magic items rare." </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">1E DMG p174: "Be careful not to upset the probability balance."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="P1NBACK, post: 5984603, member: 83768"] If by balance, you mean 4E style balance where all the math is so carefully tuned to provide some sort of "perfect" encounter length, encounters per day, damage per round, powers per day, etc. among all monsters and player's characters... then no. For god's sake, please no. I played 4E for the first time in 2 years this past Saturday and it was mind-numbing how "balanced" everything was. Everything was so... predictable. That's not what I enjoy about D&D. [INDENT][B]If [/B]by "balance" you mean everyone has a unique set of abilities to bring to the table and that each member of the team relies on each other for various things, instead of having one character who can do it all, then yes! Please. Bring it on. [B]If [/B]by "balance" you mean the game functions as you expect it would in a plausible game universe without breaking down the fun or having powers that disrupt the flow of the game, then yes! Do that! [B]If [/B]by "balance" you mean having weighted options that give a player a variety of decisions to make that all seem like worthwhile avenues of approach, then yes! [B]If[/B] you mean "balancing" the game so that the DM has tools for being the judge / arbiter / referee of the game in a fair and honest way, then by all means! Yes! [/INDENT] Balance is important to game design. But, not in the way 4E balanced things. This idea that balance is somehow 4E's domain is complete and utter garbage. Gary Gygax was always big on balance and mentioned it all the time in his text. See: [INDENT]1E DMG p7: "Limitations, checks, balances, and all the rest are placed into the system in order to assure that what is based thereon will be a superior campaign, a campaign which offers the most interesting play possibilities to the greatest number of participants for the longest period of time possible. ... If it is all too plain and too easy, the players will quickly lose interest, and your effort will prove to have been in vain. Likewise, if the campaign is too difficult, players will quickly become discouraged and lose interest in a game where they are always the butt; again your labors will have been for naught. These facts are of prime importance, for they underlie many rules." 1E DMG p81: "DM Stipulations: You may assign modifiers to any saving thvows as you see fit, always keeping in mind game balance." 1E DMG p84: "Tricking or outwitting monsters or overcoming tricks and/or traps placed to guard treasure must be determined subjectively, with level of experience balanced against the degree of difficulty you assign to the gaining of the treasure." 1E DMG p90: "You may, of course, adiust any prices and costs as you see fit for your own milieu. Be careful to observe the effects of such changes on both play balance and player involvement." 1E DMG p91: "Alter creatures freely, remembering balance. Hit dice, armor class, attacks and domage, magical and psionic powers are all mutable; and after players become used to the standard types o few ringers will make them a bit less sure of things." 1E DMG p92: "All this is not to actually penalize success. It is a logical abstraction of their actions, it stimulates them to adventure anew, and it also maintains the campaign in balance." 1E DMG p93: "As the campaign grows and deeper dungeons are developed, you exercise the same care in placement of selected and balanced magic items. Of course, at lower levels of the dungeon you have more powerful single items or groupings of disparate items, but they are commensurate with the challenge and ability of participants." 1E DMG p118: "All such creations, however, must be made with care. The items must be such as to not unbalance the game. They must not make one player character too strong, either with respect to opponents or his or her fellows or to the campaign or to the game system as a whole. Items which are expended after a single use, those with limited usages, and those with variable effects are most desirable." 1E DMG p120: "This is carefully planned so as to prevent imbalance in the game. Keep potent magic items rare." 1E DMG p174: "Be careful not to upset the probability balance."[/INDENT] [/QUOTE]
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