Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
How much should 5e aim at balance?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5985091" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>What is important in PC difference? Mechanical minutiae, or the nature of the effects that their actions have on the fiction? Different players answer this different ways.</p><p></p><p>HeroQuest revised advertises itself as being a universal system for adventure RPGing, yet every PC is mechanically identical but for the descriptors in front of the numbers. Diverse, as it claims? Or limited, as you describe 4e? There is obviously no single answer to that question, but I think it's a mistake to assume that 4e is narrow in character concepts just because of its uniform structure. It's just that those concepts are expressed in different terms - for example, doing radiant damage rather than fire damage, or untyped damage, is very signficcant in the narrative of play (because of the vulnerability of undead to radiant, and the association of radiant damage with divine PCs), but is not the sort of difference you seem to be advocating.</p><p></p><p>And vice versa. I can't build the PCs I want to build in 3E, nor GM the game I want to GM.</p><p></p><p>"Functioning" is another contentious term. I think 4e does have functioning versions of the story elements of earlier versions of D&D. There mechanical expression is sometimes different, but this is neither here nor there - and in some cases, like hobgoblins, gnolls and many demons and devils, I think 4e has overwhelmingly superior mechanical expressions of the relevant story elements.</p><p></p><p>I think D&Dnext, as best I can project it via the playtest documents, the blogs and the L&L columns, lacks many of the features that make 4e appealing to me as a fantasy RPG. The only thing that keeps me remotely hopeful about it is [MENTION=54877]Crazy Jerome[/MENTION]'s posts on this forum, which often show new ways whereby what looks to me like a clunky simulationist mechanic might be tweaked or dialled or added to in order to support a different playstyle.</p><p></p><p>I postedmy explanation upthread (in response to Ratskinner and others): I think that 3E is written to appeal to a simulationist aesthetic, but to be played something like 2nd ed or (fairly lighthearted) classic D&D.</p><p></p><p>It is only when its simulationist character is taken at face value, and players start exploring it on its own terms rather than within an AD&D framework; or when people push the gamist aspect in a harder way (as [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] describes in several posts upthread) that it starts to break.</p><p></p><p>When I read the posts of those who haven't experienced the breakage (eg your own, or [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION]) I see at least hints of very strong social contracts, plus quite a high degree of GM exercise of force, to stop that sort of drifting happening. Which is not entirely surprising - that sort of play was pretty crucial to mainstream 2nd ed AD&D, etc, so is arguably a D&D norm.</p><p></p><p>Underman, I hope you don't mind if I present this as an example of (i) strong social contract, and (ii) a certain sort of readiness to use at least a degree of GM force.</p><p></p><p>Although in any event the exploit may not work:</p><p></p><p>So maybe what we actually discovered is that the rules are poorly written! This happened in the course of actual play, and I'm pretty sure we weren't hunting through the book to find the general rules for summonings.</p><p></p><p>I want them to hold my hand - in the sense of, tell me what they think they've given me. Look at Gygax's DMG and PHB - he doesn't hold back. He tells you what he thinks his game is, and is for. It's only later D&D rulebooks that have become more anodyne.</p><p></p><p>I think that the Burning Wheel books are excellent examples of a designer telling you how and why he thinks his game works, and telling you what he thinks will break it. And in my view that's not any sort of condescension - it's saving me the trouble of learning the hard way!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5985091, member: 42582"] What is important in PC difference? Mechanical minutiae, or the nature of the effects that their actions have on the fiction? Different players answer this different ways. HeroQuest revised advertises itself as being a universal system for adventure RPGing, yet every PC is mechanically identical but for the descriptors in front of the numbers. Diverse, as it claims? Or limited, as you describe 4e? There is obviously no single answer to that question, but I think it's a mistake to assume that 4e is narrow in character concepts just because of its uniform structure. It's just that those concepts are expressed in different terms - for example, doing radiant damage rather than fire damage, or untyped damage, is very signficcant in the narrative of play (because of the vulnerability of undead to radiant, and the association of radiant damage with divine PCs), but is not the sort of difference you seem to be advocating. And vice versa. I can't build the PCs I want to build in 3E, nor GM the game I want to GM. "Functioning" is another contentious term. I think 4e does have functioning versions of the story elements of earlier versions of D&D. There mechanical expression is sometimes different, but this is neither here nor there - and in some cases, like hobgoblins, gnolls and many demons and devils, I think 4e has overwhelmingly superior mechanical expressions of the relevant story elements. I think D&Dnext, as best I can project it via the playtest documents, the blogs and the L&L columns, lacks many of the features that make 4e appealing to me as a fantasy RPG. The only thing that keeps me remotely hopeful about it is [MENTION=54877]Crazy Jerome[/MENTION]'s posts on this forum, which often show new ways whereby what looks to me like a clunky simulationist mechanic might be tweaked or dialled or added to in order to support a different playstyle. I postedmy explanation upthread (in response to Ratskinner and others): I think that 3E is written to appeal to a simulationist aesthetic, but to be played something like 2nd ed or (fairly lighthearted) classic D&D. It is only when its simulationist character is taken at face value, and players start exploring it on its own terms rather than within an AD&D framework; or when people push the gamist aspect in a harder way (as [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] describes in several posts upthread) that it starts to break. When I read the posts of those who haven't experienced the breakage (eg your own, or [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION]) I see at least hints of very strong social contracts, plus quite a high degree of GM exercise of force, to stop that sort of drifting happening. Which is not entirely surprising - that sort of play was pretty crucial to mainstream 2nd ed AD&D, etc, so is arguably a D&D norm. Underman, I hope you don't mind if I present this as an example of (i) strong social contract, and (ii) a certain sort of readiness to use at least a degree of GM force. Although in any event the exploit may not work: So maybe what we actually discovered is that the rules are poorly written! This happened in the course of actual play, and I'm pretty sure we weren't hunting through the book to find the general rules for summonings. I want them to hold my hand - in the sense of, tell me what they think they've given me. Look at Gygax's DMG and PHB - he doesn't hold back. He tells you what he thinks his game is, and is for. It's only later D&D rulebooks that have become more anodyne. I think that the Burning Wheel books are excellent examples of a designer telling you how and why he thinks his game works, and telling you what he thinks will break it. And in my view that's not any sort of condescension - it's saving me the trouble of learning the hard way! [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
How much should 5e aim at balance?
Top