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How much should 5e aim at balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5988234" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Yeah, if you just look at the mechanics of the classes, the storied popularity of the fighter is inexplicable. If you look at the archetypes it represents, though, it makes a lot more sense. The genre is /filled/ with warriors, very few of them run around casting spells like Paladins and Rangers, it's a lot less full of thieves and casters. </p><p></p><p>As I understand from other conversations, you mostly DM. So that's how I mostly take your opinions: not from the perspective of a player trying to get away with something for a favored class, but from that of a DM wishing to use the system to shape the campaign to his vision.</p><p></p><p>If you look through the story hour, you'll find long-running, successful 3.x (even 2e to 3.0 to 3.5) campaigns, in which every PC is a caster. </p><p></p><p>On the flip side, 4e campaigns have no need to 'recruit' fighters, as long as you get some sort of defender, you can play the concept you like. There's even an arcane defender. But, sure, 4e campaigns have more than enough martial characters. When the essentials-only rule is lifted at Encounters-like events, you even end up with all-martial parties.</p><p></p><p> No, there are too many of these 'camps' that are too inflexible, there's no way /5e/ could make them all happy, nor even come close. Though, honestly, they all should have already been happy before: happily gobbling up new material for & playing 4e or Pathfinder or DCC or OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord or Myth & Magic or their other retro-clone of choice.</p><p></p><p>There will be another ed of Pathfinder eventually.</p><p></p><p> In part because some of the things you say in support of those views strike me as invalid, and I have that afore-mentioned little compulsion to set the record straight. Also in part because we don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of issues. But, sure, I'd love to spend more time talking up good ideas for 5e than talking down misrepresentations of 4e. </p><p></p><p>They're trying to do something. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> CS hints at the kind of potential the 3.x fighter had. Customizeability and round-by-round versatility. Problem was, plonked down in a world full of 'tier-1' Vancian casters, enemies that could paste him in one round, and monsters he couldn't use any of his cute tricks against, even if that potential had been fulfilled, it wouldn't've been just another trap choice. I see very little to indicate that the 5e fighter is going to do any better. There's a lot more to be seen, of course, but I'm not the optimistic type.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 5988234, member: 996"] Yeah, if you just look at the mechanics of the classes, the storied popularity of the fighter is inexplicable. If you look at the archetypes it represents, though, it makes a lot more sense. The genre is /filled/ with warriors, very few of them run around casting spells like Paladins and Rangers, it's a lot less full of thieves and casters. As I understand from other conversations, you mostly DM. So that's how I mostly take your opinions: not from the perspective of a player trying to get away with something for a favored class, but from that of a DM wishing to use the system to shape the campaign to his vision. If you look through the story hour, you'll find long-running, successful 3.x (even 2e to 3.0 to 3.5) campaigns, in which every PC is a caster. On the flip side, 4e campaigns have no need to 'recruit' fighters, as long as you get some sort of defender, you can play the concept you like. There's even an arcane defender. But, sure, 4e campaigns have more than enough martial characters. When the essentials-only rule is lifted at Encounters-like events, you even end up with all-martial parties. No, there are too many of these 'camps' that are too inflexible, there's no way /5e/ could make them all happy, nor even come close. Though, honestly, they all should have already been happy before: happily gobbling up new material for & playing 4e or Pathfinder or DCC or OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord or Myth & Magic or their other retro-clone of choice. There will be another ed of Pathfinder eventually. In part because some of the things you say in support of those views strike me as invalid, and I have that afore-mentioned little compulsion to set the record straight. Also in part because we don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of issues. But, sure, I'd love to spend more time talking up good ideas for 5e than talking down misrepresentations of 4e. They're trying to do something. ;) CS hints at the kind of potential the 3.x fighter had. Customizeability and round-by-round versatility. Problem was, plonked down in a world full of 'tier-1' Vancian casters, enemies that could paste him in one round, and monsters he couldn't use any of his cute tricks against, even if that potential had been fulfilled, it wouldn't've been just another trap choice. I see very little to indicate that the 5e fighter is going to do any better. There's a lot more to be seen, of course, but I'm not the optimistic type. [/QUOTE]
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