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How much should 5e aim at balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="The Choice" data-source="post: 6010021" data-attributes="member: 90669"><p>The designer I obliquely mentionned was Mike Mearls. The design leads for 4E were all in-house guys from the 3E era; Bruce Cordell has been working on D&D since the TSR days. Everything I read in the ramp-up to 4E was to the effect that they knew, from consumer-survey data and their own internal testing, that certain elements of 3E were out of whack because of specific changes from 1/2E to 3E (the way saves worked vs. the DC of spells, monster hp ballooning due to Con modifiers multiplied by hit dice, etc.). </p><p></p><p>Of course, there was a marketing strategy behind the new edition; no company worth their salt would launch a new product without making a pitch to consumers, but there were reasons for the switchover from 3rd to 4th edition beyond "let's make some cash". To paraphrase Andy Collins (I believe) "when you design to circumvent the game's problematic features, it's time to change the game."</p><p></p><p>Also, to say that 3.5 was still "warm on the press" might be misrepresenting things a bit: the last big rules addition to 3E was, undoubtedly, the Tome of Battle (which was inspired by the 4E design process), and before that, maybe the Tome of Magic (?). Otherwise, not that many substantive supplements came out in 2006-2007 (pretty much the same output we're seeing now, at the tail-end of 4E). So while material was being published, I wouldn't say it was all top of the line game supplements.</p><p></p><p>I could post a many-layered argument for why 4E did what it did, but it wouldn't change anybody's mind about it, but it's not related to this particular discussion. I'll just say that "balance" was and, according to a recent article by the lead designer of the new iteration of D&D, is a concern for the design team. Heck, it was a problem Gary Gygax himself struggled with.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>It's the game's fault when, by the core rules, the best rogue is a wizard/sorcerer, the best melee combattant is a spellcaster, when ANY role in a party can be filled by a spellcaster, and when those same spellcasters can negate entire encounters by bypassing the game's established conflict/situation resolution mechanics.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I did change it. I can play any type of D&D game I want with 4th edition. It does everything every past edition could do, and the guy playing a fighter doesn't feel like a moron for having picked a non-caster class. Is it a perfect game? Hell no! But it's a lot more honest, fair and clear than 3rd edition ever was (1st and 2nd had a sort of in-game balancing system where you were never meant to play non-casters past 10th level, but it was kind of obfuscated). Again, I run bog-standard, basic adventures based largely on published materials and DM advice included in the books. To say that my experiences are due to my "playstyle", basically puts in doubt my reading comprehension or my understanding of D&D as a tabletop fantasy role-playing game. As a guy who's been playing this game for close to 20 years, I very much disagree.</p><p></p><p>Edit: mis-attributed the quote to Andy Collins, it was James Wyatt, and the quote went: "When the game gets to the point where we know tge holes and pitfalls in the rules well enough that we constrain our design in order to avoid them, it's time for a new set of rules."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The Choice, post: 6010021, member: 90669"] The designer I obliquely mentionned was Mike Mearls. The design leads for 4E were all in-house guys from the 3E era; Bruce Cordell has been working on D&D since the TSR days. Everything I read in the ramp-up to 4E was to the effect that they knew, from consumer-survey data and their own internal testing, that certain elements of 3E were out of whack because of specific changes from 1/2E to 3E (the way saves worked vs. the DC of spells, monster hp ballooning due to Con modifiers multiplied by hit dice, etc.). Of course, there was a marketing strategy behind the new edition; no company worth their salt would launch a new product without making a pitch to consumers, but there were reasons for the switchover from 3rd to 4th edition beyond "let's make some cash". To paraphrase Andy Collins (I believe) "when you design to circumvent the game's problematic features, it's time to change the game." Also, to say that 3.5 was still "warm on the press" might be misrepresenting things a bit: the last big rules addition to 3E was, undoubtedly, the Tome of Battle (which was inspired by the 4E design process), and before that, maybe the Tome of Magic (?). Otherwise, not that many substantive supplements came out in 2006-2007 (pretty much the same output we're seeing now, at the tail-end of 4E). So while material was being published, I wouldn't say it was all top of the line game supplements. I could post a many-layered argument for why 4E did what it did, but it wouldn't change anybody's mind about it, but it's not related to this particular discussion. I'll just say that "balance" was and, according to a recent article by the lead designer of the new iteration of D&D, is a concern for the design team. Heck, it was a problem Gary Gygax himself struggled with. It's the game's fault when, by the core rules, the best rogue is a wizard/sorcerer, the best melee combattant is a spellcaster, when ANY role in a party can be filled by a spellcaster, and when those same spellcasters can negate entire encounters by bypassing the game's established conflict/situation resolution mechanics. I did change it. I can play any type of D&D game I want with 4th edition. It does everything every past edition could do, and the guy playing a fighter doesn't feel like a moron for having picked a non-caster class. Is it a perfect game? Hell no! But it's a lot more honest, fair and clear than 3rd edition ever was (1st and 2nd had a sort of in-game balancing system where you were never meant to play non-casters past 10th level, but it was kind of obfuscated). Again, I run bog-standard, basic adventures based largely on published materials and DM advice included in the books. To say that my experiences are due to my "playstyle", basically puts in doubt my reading comprehension or my understanding of D&D as a tabletop fantasy role-playing game. As a guy who's been playing this game for close to 20 years, I very much disagree. Edit: mis-attributed the quote to Andy Collins, it was James Wyatt, and the quote went: "When the game gets to the point where we know tge holes and pitfalls in the rules well enough that we constrain our design in order to avoid them, it's time for a new set of rules." [/QUOTE]
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