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How much should 5e aim at balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6010292" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Assuming your 11th level fighter...</p><p> </p><p>First the Druid was either Wildshape (tiny)'d and flying so the fighter had a fun time getting to him, or was Wildshape(large)'d and probably has reach.</p><p> </p><p>The Improved <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBear.htm" target="_blank">Dire Bear</a> promptly tears into the back of the fighter, getting the first full round attack due to being summoned in the right place. Two claw attacks at +21 both of which start a grab - and the fighter's AC isn't going to be hard to hit. Grapple check +25 with Improved Grab - your fighter is at +18 or taking -7(!) on a d20 vs d20 roll. I think we can say that the fighter ends up grabbed and therefore unable to use his greatsword.</p><p> </p><p>Congratulations. Unless your fighter escapes and stays escaped <em>he can't use his greatsword</em>. Almost half of his worth in magic items is now useless. He's locked in a grapple with the Dire Bear he was foolish enough to ignore. The druid then walks off and leaves the bear to mop up the fighter.</p><p> </p><p>And this is a fight that was rigged in favour of the fighter. One in favour of the druid would start off with the Druid Wildshaped into the form of an eagle or other tiny bird. And then dropping a dire bear onto the fighter.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>You might be using splats. I don't see why I need to bother.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>That's why he's not using Summon Monster 1.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>5 foot step.</p><p> </p><p>But this isn't why a druid punks a fighter. Not only can his summoned bear just sit on the fighter while the tiny Druid does whatever the hell he likes, we look at the fighter's job.</p><p> </p><p>Melee damage? The Druid brings it by breaking the action economy. He's either a bear with a bear companion who summons bears (level 8) or an eagle who drops bears on things (level 11)</p><p> </p><p>Toughness? The druid can heal. And brings lots of HP from his summons. Oh, and a will save that doesn't suck.</p><p> </p><p>Control? The Druid's been entangling fights since level 1. And can be in several places at once and break the action economy.</p><p> </p><p>The core parts of what the fighter contributes to the team? The druid does them better.</p><p> </p><p>And out of combat? Not even close.</p><p> </p><p>As for class balance in duels, Giant In The Playground had several - 13th level Wizard vs 20th level Fighter. They came out about even, mostly because the fighter had a ridiculous collection of items thanks to the wealth by level rules.</p><p> </p><p>Edit: [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], that assumes the polar bear hits. It's only at a default of +13 which ... probably isn't enough unless you buff it. (Greater Magic Fang and Animal Growth come to mind).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6010292, member: 87792"] Assuming your 11th level fighter... First the Druid was either Wildshape (tiny)'d and flying so the fighter had a fun time getting to him, or was Wildshape(large)'d and probably has reach. The Improved [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBear.htm"]Dire Bear[/URL] promptly tears into the back of the fighter, getting the first full round attack due to being summoned in the right place. Two claw attacks at +21 both of which start a grab - and the fighter's AC isn't going to be hard to hit. Grapple check +25 with Improved Grab - your fighter is at +18 or taking -7(!) on a d20 vs d20 roll. I think we can say that the fighter ends up grabbed and therefore unable to use his greatsword. Congratulations. Unless your fighter escapes and stays escaped [I]he can't use his greatsword[/I]. Almost half of his worth in magic items is now useless. He's locked in a grapple with the Dire Bear he was foolish enough to ignore. The druid then walks off and leaves the bear to mop up the fighter. And this is a fight that was rigged in favour of the fighter. One in favour of the druid would start off with the Druid Wildshaped into the form of an eagle or other tiny bird. And then dropping a dire bear onto the fighter. You might be using splats. I don't see why I need to bother. That's why he's not using Summon Monster 1. 5 foot step. But this isn't why a druid punks a fighter. Not only can his summoned bear just sit on the fighter while the tiny Druid does whatever the hell he likes, we look at the fighter's job. Melee damage? The Druid brings it by breaking the action economy. He's either a bear with a bear companion who summons bears (level 8) or an eagle who drops bears on things (level 11) Toughness? The druid can heal. And brings lots of HP from his summons. Oh, and a will save that doesn't suck. Control? The Druid's been entangling fights since level 1. And can be in several places at once and break the action economy. The core parts of what the fighter contributes to the team? The druid does them better. And out of combat? Not even close. As for class balance in duels, Giant In The Playground had several - 13th level Wizard vs 20th level Fighter. They came out about even, mostly because the fighter had a ridiculous collection of items thanks to the wealth by level rules. Edit: [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], that assumes the polar bear hits. It's only at a default of +13 which ... probably isn't enough unless you buff it. (Greater Magic Fang and Animal Growth come to mind). [/QUOTE]
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