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How much should 5e aim at balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ahnehnois" data-source="post: 6010311" data-attributes="member: 17106"><p>Well, let's see.</p><p></p><p>This is pretty much true of any class and the fighter. There's definitely room for improvement there. Then again, I would expect the fighter to be about fighting.</p><p></p><p>You have, however, ignored all the issues created by a druid and his animal companion being out of place in many social situations.</p><p></p><p>Okay.</p><p></p><p>Except that this disregards the main source of damage: magic items, which neither the druid nor his animal can make particularly good use out of (and who have to share whatever they can get). Animal companions also have no class features and ineffective defenses and I find most druids spend more time protecting them than attacking. The only animal companion I remember actually being powerful was an intelligent one under 3.0 rules, and even then the druid had to totally sell out himself to make that happen. The typical animal companion (and I've played and DMed quite a few, druids being popular in my games) rarely hits anything, has a high mortality rate, and is mainly useful for flavor and as a flanking partner.</p><p></p><p>Accessibility can also be a problem; animal companions sometimes can't or won't go places where adventure happens (never had this problem with a fighter).</p><p></p><p>Agreed. Though, if the druid chooses poorly in his spells or runs out of spells, advantage fighter.</p><p></p><p>And if the druid casts his spells on the fighter to make him better (i.e. what should typically happen if both are allies), advantage fighter.</p><p></p><p>You left out the main commodity: base attack. Every point of base attack is a 5% improvement on hit chance, and a druid is unlikely to match that with his companion or himself. There's also an enormous advantage in magic items in practice; there aren't many that are usable for druids or companions, but a fighter typically has great armor and a great weapon that shift the balance. Not saying this is the best way to do it, but magic items have classically been where the D&D fighter gets a lot of his power from. DR becomes a significant issue at high levels, and the ability of a druid or his companion to overcome material DR is limited. There are also practical issues involving the druid's unsuitability in nonwild settings and his presumed use of resources to help other party members that aren't forced by the rules, but which typically serve to balance things.</p><p></p><p>It's also worth noting that 11th level is considered high level and most characters are not played at this level, making any imbalance you do observe more of a theoretical issue than a practical one. What high level play is and should be is rather a bigger issue than the design of individual classes. Classically, D&D has made casters into superheroes and kept non-casters relatively mundane, changing the style of the game.</p><p></p><p>Do I think the fighter is lacking in class abilities and the combat system surrounding him needs improvement? Yes. But that doesn't make an unrevised game unplayable. As with most things in life, there's a natural tendency for the game to equilibrate around a point of balance and work just fine, regardless of what's in the rules.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ahnehnois, post: 6010311, member: 17106"] Well, let's see. This is pretty much true of any class and the fighter. There's definitely room for improvement there. Then again, I would expect the fighter to be about fighting. You have, however, ignored all the issues created by a druid and his animal companion being out of place in many social situations. Okay. Except that this disregards the main source of damage: magic items, which neither the druid nor his animal can make particularly good use out of (and who have to share whatever they can get). Animal companions also have no class features and ineffective defenses and I find most druids spend more time protecting them than attacking. The only animal companion I remember actually being powerful was an intelligent one under 3.0 rules, and even then the druid had to totally sell out himself to make that happen. The typical animal companion (and I've played and DMed quite a few, druids being popular in my games) rarely hits anything, has a high mortality rate, and is mainly useful for flavor and as a flanking partner. Accessibility can also be a problem; animal companions sometimes can't or won't go places where adventure happens (never had this problem with a fighter). Agreed. Though, if the druid chooses poorly in his spells or runs out of spells, advantage fighter. And if the druid casts his spells on the fighter to make him better (i.e. what should typically happen if both are allies), advantage fighter. You left out the main commodity: base attack. Every point of base attack is a 5% improvement on hit chance, and a druid is unlikely to match that with his companion or himself. There's also an enormous advantage in magic items in practice; there aren't many that are usable for druids or companions, but a fighter typically has great armor and a great weapon that shift the balance. Not saying this is the best way to do it, but magic items have classically been where the D&D fighter gets a lot of his power from. DR becomes a significant issue at high levels, and the ability of a druid or his companion to overcome material DR is limited. There are also practical issues involving the druid's unsuitability in nonwild settings and his presumed use of resources to help other party members that aren't forced by the rules, but which typically serve to balance things. It's also worth noting that 11th level is considered high level and most characters are not played at this level, making any imbalance you do observe more of a theoretical issue than a practical one. What high level play is and should be is rather a bigger issue than the design of individual classes. Classically, D&D has made casters into superheroes and kept non-casters relatively mundane, changing the style of the game. Do I think the fighter is lacking in class abilities and the combat system surrounding him needs improvement? Yes. But that doesn't make an unrevised game unplayable. As with most things in life, there's a natural tendency for the game to equilibrate around a point of balance and work just fine, regardless of what's in the rules. [/QUOTE]
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