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How much should 5e aim at balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="The Choice" data-source="post: 6010563" data-attributes="member: 90669"><p>I also believe they had financial reasons for going forward with 3.5, I just don't think it was the <em>sole</em> or even <em>main</em> motivator.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Tough, but possible if you bend the encounter building rules a bit and use MM3 math. A first level NPC with a greataxe could do it on a crit.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Short of <em>sleep </em>(which will still take two rounds if it hits) I don't see a single at-will, encounter or daily attack power that, outside of a critical hit with a high critical weapon, will take out an average monster. Minions, sure, but not the standard creatures.</p><p></p><p>While a wizard or cleric will always have a cantrip or orison to fall back onto, it is entirely possible that, within the span of an encounter (a particularly tough one), both of those types of characters could run out of dailies and encounter abilities, even at high levels. Their use then becomes limited, but, I'll agree, they don't become totally useless or a hindrance for other characters like in previous editions. I just happen to see that as a net positive.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Possible with the disease rules. I'd argue it's even easier to do that then in 3.5.</p><p></p><p></p><p>While everyone has the second wind ability, it's not the most efficient use of a healing surge. So, while there is no "fix" to that, you could choose not to use it. It's not really a solution though, even I'll admit it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Slayers and Knights.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Are kind of there, actually. It's just that they work more like "save or get progressively worse until you die". You could bring back pure save or die effects, but it would mean bringing back a 1e/2e-like system for saving throws where those spells really weren't effective at high levels.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Easy. I can run mystery/investigation games without having it spoilt by a single spell (or spell-like ability). I can run combat intensive sessions without fear that a lucky streak on my part will straight up murder the PCs. I can run sessions with a single combat, and not expect it to be either a cakewalk for the PCs or a massacre. In essence, 4E provides my games with a level of "armour" that makes it tough (though not impossible) for them to fail catastrophically. Some would say it's "safe", I prefer "challenging while remaining fair for all those around the table."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>HA! Fell into my carefully laid trap. The world of D&D, whatever you choose it to be (FR, DS, your own homebrew), is a fantastical world populated by weird creatures. A simple peasant cannot simply get up one morning, pick up a sword and call himself a fighter, no more than some seamstress can, by finding a wand in some robes she has to mend, call herself a wizard. If the world is completely unrealistic (and a world with centaurs, floating eyeball-thingies that shoot deadly rays, dragons and pixies most definately is) than it stands to reason that all characters with a measure of training can stretch the limits of our reality. Why is it tough for a fighter to trip a centaur? Because creatures with 4 legs are hard to knock down, right? That's the case in our world whenever I go cow-tipping (I don't, but for the sake of argument, let's say I do). Well, what if your trip-master fighter learned his craft from a veteran of the Great Centaur Invasion of '09? Surely he learned how to trip those from that grizzled old man. So when that hooved bastard is bearing down on him, he knows where to aim to put him down.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying fighters should fly, turn invisible, cleave the tops of mountains and levitate them or fire mind bullets at his opponents, but his exploits, his feats of strength, agility and endurance should be amazing.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You could be right. We don't have any real numbers to back assertions one way or another, but Paizo has a neat subscription business that runs on publishing adventures. And TSR, back in the olden days, published many adventures that have become "classics" (not for me, mind you, but for older players, maybe). You might have never paged through one, but if the past (and present) is any indication many players, both new and old, did and still do.</p><p></p><p>What's more, the advice on campaign management/adventure building from the DMG/GM advice book is a pretty useful tool in determining the "common middle-ground" of a game, providing a starting point from which to expand if needed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The Choice, post: 6010563, member: 90669"] I also believe they had financial reasons for going forward with 3.5, I just don't think it was the [I]sole[/I] or even [I]main[/I] motivator. Tough, but possible if you bend the encounter building rules a bit and use MM3 math. A first level NPC with a greataxe could do it on a crit. Short of [I]sleep [/I](which will still take two rounds if it hits) I don't see a single at-will, encounter or daily attack power that, outside of a critical hit with a high critical weapon, will take out an average monster. Minions, sure, but not the standard creatures. While a wizard or cleric will always have a cantrip or orison to fall back onto, it is entirely possible that, within the span of an encounter (a particularly tough one), both of those types of characters could run out of dailies and encounter abilities, even at high levels. Their use then becomes limited, but, I'll agree, they don't become totally useless or a hindrance for other characters like in previous editions. I just happen to see that as a net positive. Possible with the disease rules. I'd argue it's even easier to do that then in 3.5. While everyone has the second wind ability, it's not the most efficient use of a healing surge. So, while there is no "fix" to that, you could choose not to use it. It's not really a solution though, even I'll admit it. Slayers and Knights. Are kind of there, actually. It's just that they work more like "save or get progressively worse until you die". You could bring back pure save or die effects, but it would mean bringing back a 1e/2e-like system for saving throws where those spells really weren't effective at high levels. Easy. I can run mystery/investigation games without having it spoilt by a single spell (or spell-like ability). I can run combat intensive sessions without fear that a lucky streak on my part will straight up murder the PCs. I can run sessions with a single combat, and not expect it to be either a cakewalk for the PCs or a massacre. In essence, 4E provides my games with a level of "armour" that makes it tough (though not impossible) for them to fail catastrophically. Some would say it's "safe", I prefer "challenging while remaining fair for all those around the table." HA! Fell into my carefully laid trap. The world of D&D, whatever you choose it to be (FR, DS, your own homebrew), is a fantastical world populated by weird creatures. A simple peasant cannot simply get up one morning, pick up a sword and call himself a fighter, no more than some seamstress can, by finding a wand in some robes she has to mend, call herself a wizard. If the world is completely unrealistic (and a world with centaurs, floating eyeball-thingies that shoot deadly rays, dragons and pixies most definately is) than it stands to reason that all characters with a measure of training can stretch the limits of our reality. Why is it tough for a fighter to trip a centaur? Because creatures with 4 legs are hard to knock down, right? That's the case in our world whenever I go cow-tipping (I don't, but for the sake of argument, let's say I do). Well, what if your trip-master fighter learned his craft from a veteran of the Great Centaur Invasion of '09? Surely he learned how to trip those from that grizzled old man. So when that hooved bastard is bearing down on him, he knows where to aim to put him down. I'm not saying fighters should fly, turn invisible, cleave the tops of mountains and levitate them or fire mind bullets at his opponents, but his exploits, his feats of strength, agility and endurance should be amazing. You could be right. We don't have any real numbers to back assertions one way or another, but Paizo has a neat subscription business that runs on publishing adventures. And TSR, back in the olden days, published many adventures that have become "classics" (not for me, mind you, but for older players, maybe). You might have never paged through one, but if the past (and present) is any indication many players, both new and old, did and still do. What's more, the advice on campaign management/adventure building from the DMG/GM advice book is a pretty useful tool in determining the "common middle-ground" of a game, providing a starting point from which to expand if needed. [/QUOTE]
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