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How much should 5e aim at balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 6013740" data-attributes="member: 3400"><p>Deliberately being obtuse isn't a very helpful discussion style. Making smart, not-overtly metagame, in character choices isn't the problem. The problem is redlining the system all the time. The problem is deciding that a character is only effective when he's maxed his spellcasting stat and focused on save or sit spells, meanwhile dumping as many other stats as he can get away with because they don't contribute to <strong>winning the game</strong> (because what does an interesting story matter anyway). Add into that dumping or selling any interesting or unique magic item to get the Big 6 because they contribute all the time. </p><p></p><p>And yes, it is about recognizing there are differences in power when everything is taken together and exploiting them, pursuing the numbers that bring that power, rather than the alternative of adding texture to your character. </p><p></p><p>All of that takes a particular psychological approach to RPGs and the rules that they use - that they aren't there just as guidelines to provide a bit of order to the chaos of playing a character. That the rules are there to exploit to enable you to win the game. That's an alien psychology to a lot of people who play, who don't care about having a fighter with a 20 Strength at 1st level, who are willing to invest a skill point per level in Craft: food because they think the idea of being a half-ogre barbarian fry cook is fun, who would rather be a halfling rogue fighting with a small dagger because that's the character they envision and want to play even if they'll be an average of 1 less point of damage per hit compared to a short sword (which they can also use) and a whole lot further behind a medium sized character with the same strength but wielding a long sword, and who can look at the mechanical incentives to playing a certain way and turn their back on them because that's not the style of game they want to play, nor is it necessary to play that way to be successful.</p><p></p><p>So yes, it is a different psychology. And it's one that doesn't mix well with the psychology that doesn't really care to exploit the rules. But my point in response to Mustrum Ridcully was that you don't have to play 3e like AD&D for it to not break. You can play it like it is, like 3e, without it breaking because there's another component necessary for it to "break" and that's playing with the redlining the rules psychology. 3e won't break because grease is better than magic missile in many circumstances, nor because color spray is better than burning hands in many other circumstances. It won't break because giants are more susceptible to will-save based spells than fortitude-based spells or because their ranged attacks suck compared to their hand to hand attacks. </p><p></p><p>I think pemerton has a point about point-buy systems tending to be up front with advice (they really do use advice rather than mechanisms) to keep PCs under control and under GM supervision with character generation. 3e, being the D&D edition most responsive to player choices when it comes to build options, could use a bit more of that (and I'm not alone in believing that, hence Monte Cook's "Ivory Tower" article).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="billd91, post: 6013740, member: 3400"] Deliberately being obtuse isn't a very helpful discussion style. Making smart, not-overtly metagame, in character choices isn't the problem. The problem is redlining the system all the time. The problem is deciding that a character is only effective when he's maxed his spellcasting stat and focused on save or sit spells, meanwhile dumping as many other stats as he can get away with because they don't contribute to [b]winning the game[/b] (because what does an interesting story matter anyway). Add into that dumping or selling any interesting or unique magic item to get the Big 6 because they contribute all the time. And yes, it is about recognizing there are differences in power when everything is taken together and exploiting them, pursuing the numbers that bring that power, rather than the alternative of adding texture to your character. All of that takes a particular psychological approach to RPGs and the rules that they use - that they aren't there just as guidelines to provide a bit of order to the chaos of playing a character. That the rules are there to exploit to enable you to win the game. That's an alien psychology to a lot of people who play, who don't care about having a fighter with a 20 Strength at 1st level, who are willing to invest a skill point per level in Craft: food because they think the idea of being a half-ogre barbarian fry cook is fun, who would rather be a halfling rogue fighting with a small dagger because that's the character they envision and want to play even if they'll be an average of 1 less point of damage per hit compared to a short sword (which they can also use) and a whole lot further behind a medium sized character with the same strength but wielding a long sword, and who can look at the mechanical incentives to playing a certain way and turn their back on them because that's not the style of game they want to play, nor is it necessary to play that way to be successful. So yes, it is a different psychology. And it's one that doesn't mix well with the psychology that doesn't really care to exploit the rules. But my point in response to Mustrum Ridcully was that you don't have to play 3e like AD&D for it to not break. You can play it like it is, like 3e, without it breaking because there's another component necessary for it to "break" and that's playing with the redlining the rules psychology. 3e won't break because grease is better than magic missile in many circumstances, nor because color spray is better than burning hands in many other circumstances. It won't break because giants are more susceptible to will-save based spells than fortitude-based spells or because their ranged attacks suck compared to their hand to hand attacks. I think pemerton has a point about point-buy systems tending to be up front with advice (they really do use advice rather than mechanisms) to keep PCs under control and under GM supervision with character generation. 3e, being the D&D edition most responsive to player choices when it comes to build options, could use a bit more of that (and I'm not alone in believing that, hence Monte Cook's "Ivory Tower" article). [/QUOTE]
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