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How much should 5e aim at balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6013870" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>And here's where we have a deep disagreement about both the power differential of 3.X and what is needed to optimise. To be able to blow most challenges out of the water as a 3.X wizard you need three things:</p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Not to multiclass out of casting classes/prestige classes</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">A high (not outstanding) primary stat - say 14 at 1st level and then putting my bonus points into it - more is just gilding the lilly</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">A decent spell selection.</li> </ol><p>Points 1 and 2 should both be the default. I don't normally think up the character concept of "a stupid wizard" or "a foolish cleric" and the game should certainly not expect me to. And with Gygaxo-Vancian casters, spell selection is an <em>in character</em> choice - which means that to make a poor spell selection I need to find an in character reason to do so. And with clerics, wizards, or druids (or indeed the rest of Tier 1 like artificers) I have a decent mental stat. So I have no meta-excuse for picking poor spells.</p><p> </p><p>I don't need to redline the system. Being a druid who turns into a bear and bringing a pet bear to the party is enough. As is being a specialist conjurer. All core options.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>The issue is not that out of character I want to win the game. It's that in character I want to <em>stay alive</em> and to <em>complete the quest.</em> <strong>Trying to <u>survive</u> and <u>complete your in character goals</u> in character is indistinguishable from trying to win out of character.</strong> You are quite literally telling me that in order to play a caster in 3.X my character concept needs to be one that doesn't care if he or she succeeds or even if he or she dies. You want to restrict me to concepts that are trying to commit suicide-by-dungeon.</p><p> </p><p>So you are giving me a choice. Don't play a caster with an open spell list, don't roleplay, or play a suicidal character. And given that I find pre Bo9S fighters tedious, monotonous, and repetitive, this isn't acceptable either. And the skill system is annoying so rogues are out. Which lead to me specialising in the Bard. Because this was literally the only core class I could use that wasn't incredibly annoying and didn't mean I needed to roleplay someone who didn't care much whether he or she lived or died. (I could, I suppose, have picked the sorceror instead).</p><p> </p><p>I do not believe that making me play a character who does not value their own life highly if I am to play a spellcaster is a feature.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6013870, member: 87792"] And here's where we have a deep disagreement about both the power differential of 3.X and what is needed to optimise. To be able to blow most challenges out of the water as a 3.X wizard you need three things: [LIST=1] [*]Not to multiclass out of casting classes/prestige classes [*]A high (not outstanding) primary stat - say 14 at 1st level and then putting my bonus points into it - more is just gilding the lilly [*]A decent spell selection. [/LIST]Points 1 and 2 should both be the default. I don't normally think up the character concept of "a stupid wizard" or "a foolish cleric" and the game should certainly not expect me to. And with Gygaxo-Vancian casters, spell selection is an [I]in character[/I] choice - which means that to make a poor spell selection I need to find an in character reason to do so. And with clerics, wizards, or druids (or indeed the rest of Tier 1 like artificers) I have a decent mental stat. So I have no meta-excuse for picking poor spells. I don't need to redline the system. Being a druid who turns into a bear and bringing a pet bear to the party is enough. As is being a specialist conjurer. All core options. The issue is not that out of character I want to win the game. It's that in character I want to [I]stay alive[/I] and to [I]complete the quest.[/I] [B]Trying to [U]survive[/U] and [U]complete your in character goals[/U] in character is indistinguishable from trying to win out of character.[/B] You are quite literally telling me that in order to play a caster in 3.X my character concept needs to be one that doesn't care if he or she succeeds or even if he or she dies. You want to restrict me to concepts that are trying to commit suicide-by-dungeon. So you are giving me a choice. Don't play a caster with an open spell list, don't roleplay, or play a suicidal character. And given that I find pre Bo9S fighters tedious, monotonous, and repetitive, this isn't acceptable either. And the skill system is annoying so rogues are out. Which lead to me specialising in the Bard. Because this was literally the only core class I could use that wasn't incredibly annoying and didn't mean I needed to roleplay someone who didn't care much whether he or she lived or died. (I could, I suppose, have picked the sorceror instead). I do not believe that making me play a character who does not value their own life highly if I am to play a spellcaster is a feature. [/QUOTE]
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