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How much should 5e aim at balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="slobo777" data-source="post: 6013923" data-attributes="member: 6694877"><p>Yes spells. They often retained their spell level when moving from AD&D to 3E, without making allowances for how they affected the game, and how they shifted balance of class effectiveness around. The general feel I get from looking at the 3E and before spell lists is a collection of cool ideas bundled into a self-referential power scheme. 4th-level spells are better than 3rd-level spells etc, but the relative power level is only attempted with any rigour <em>within</em> the spell lists - outside of the spell system, in comparison to non-casters, the effect on class/class balance is only considered very loosely.</p><p></p><p>Using a spell slot up is a small, short-term resource. Usually less than 1/4 of what the caster can do in a day. So it makes sense to compare that 1/4-of-what-I-can-do-per-day versus what other classes are supposed to excel at at the same level. Or perhaps what one spell slot spent on one combat could do (assuming a game goal of 4 "meaningful" combats in a moderate difficulty day). </p><p></p><p>A 3rd-level spell for instance should not cause the caster to outperform a 5th-level fighter over the course of a combat, or auto-solve an exploration problem suitable for a 5th-level rogue. If the same spell had impact roughly equal to what a 3rd/4th level rogue or fighter could do, then a Wizard can still contribute (and get to choose flexibly how and when to do so, which is a benefit), but not outshine those two classes at what they are best at. </p><p></p><p>That doesn't necessarily mean removing spells or moving spell levels around, but it might mean adjusting the rules for them. The combined rules for Invisibility and Stealth for example should make it clear that any non-Stealth expert with invisibility cast on them is not quite as effective as a level 3 Rogue who has specialised in stealth, but who is not invisible. There are lots of routes to this - shorter durations, ensuring that Hidden is a better game mechanic than Invisible etc, etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="slobo777, post: 6013923, member: 6694877"] Yes spells. They often retained their spell level when moving from AD&D to 3E, without making allowances for how they affected the game, and how they shifted balance of class effectiveness around. The general feel I get from looking at the 3E and before spell lists is a collection of cool ideas bundled into a self-referential power scheme. 4th-level spells are better than 3rd-level spells etc, but the relative power level is only attempted with any rigour [I]within[/I] the spell lists - outside of the spell system, in comparison to non-casters, the effect on class/class balance is only considered very loosely. Using a spell slot up is a small, short-term resource. Usually less than 1/4 of what the caster can do in a day. So it makes sense to compare that 1/4-of-what-I-can-do-per-day versus what other classes are supposed to excel at at the same level. Or perhaps what one spell slot spent on one combat could do (assuming a game goal of 4 "meaningful" combats in a moderate difficulty day). A 3rd-level spell for instance should not cause the caster to outperform a 5th-level fighter over the course of a combat, or auto-solve an exploration problem suitable for a 5th-level rogue. If the same spell had impact roughly equal to what a 3rd/4th level rogue or fighter could do, then a Wizard can still contribute (and get to choose flexibly how and when to do so, which is a benefit), but not outshine those two classes at what they are best at. That doesn't necessarily mean removing spells or moving spell levels around, but it might mean adjusting the rules for them. The combined rules for Invisibility and Stealth for example should make it clear that any non-Stealth expert with invisibility cast on them is not quite as effective as a level 3 Rogue who has specialised in stealth, but who is not invisible. There are lots of routes to this - shorter durations, ensuring that Hidden is a better game mechanic than Invisible etc, etc. [/QUOTE]
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