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How much should 5e aim at balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6015066" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>OK.</p><p></p><p>Let's go by the <em>actual</em> 3.5 rules. The rules for Golems, not any houseruled version.</p><p></p><p>The rules for Golems are <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm" target="_blank">right here</a>.</p><p></p><p>The actual rules for Golems immunity to magic are listed in two places.</p><p></p><p>The first place says </p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Immunity to Magic (<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities" target="_blank">Ex</a>)</strong></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"> Golems have immunity to most magical and <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities" target="_blank">supernatural</a> effects, except when otherwise noted. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>Each type of Golem then proceeds to have its own description. In every single case this is clarified to read:</p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Immunity to Magic (<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities" target="_blank">Ex</a>)</strong></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"> A [type] golem is immune to any spell or <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities" target="_blank">spell-like ability</a> that allows <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance" target="_blank">spell resistance</a>. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>Which means that Golems are vulnerable to spells that do not provide spell resistance. Because they don't hit the golem directly. (Incidently, this is standard spell immunity). That word most is important. Because most spells do allow Spell Resistance. Immunity to Magic is just another name for the standard term <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity" target="_blank">Spell Immunity</a>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is different from the <a href="http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/monsters_g.html#grimlock" target="_blank">3.0 golem</a> which had the following text (taken from the Flesh Golem)</p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Special Ability</strong></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Magic Immunity (Ex): Flesh golems are immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects, except as follows. Fire- and cold-based effects slow them (as the spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw. An electricity effect breaks any slow effect on the golem and cures 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. For example, a flesh golem hit by a lightning bolt cast by a 5th-level wizard gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18. The golem rolls no saving throw against electricity effects.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>In the 3.0 case the golem is explicitely immune to <em>all</em> spells except where noted.</p><p></p><p></p><p>But in the 3.5 case it is entirely consistent that any specific golem listed is not immune to spells that don't allow SR. And indeed the clarified immunity to magic passage under each golem <em>makes no sense</em> if they are actually immune to spells like Glitterdust. First the word most (an explicit change from 3.0) is entirely redundant if your reading is correct. Second, there is no point explicitely calling spells that allow spell resistance if the golem is intended to be immune to all spells.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6015066, member: 87792"] OK. Let's go by the [I]actual[/I] 3.5 rules. The rules for Golems, not any houseruled version. The rules for Golems are [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm"]right here[/URL]. The actual rules for Golems immunity to magic are listed in two places. The first place says [INDENT][B]Immunity to Magic ([URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities"]Ex[/URL])[/B] Golems have immunity to most magical and [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities"]supernatural[/URL] effects, except when otherwise noted. [/INDENT]Each type of Golem then proceeds to have its own description. In every single case this is clarified to read: [INDENT][B]Immunity to Magic ([URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities"]Ex[/URL])[/B] A [type] golem is immune to any spell or [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities"]spell-like ability[/URL] that allows [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance"]spell resistance[/URL]. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below. [/INDENT]Which means that Golems are vulnerable to spells that do not provide spell resistance. Because they don't hit the golem directly. (Incidently, this is standard spell immunity). That word most is important. Because most spells do allow Spell Resistance. Immunity to Magic is just another name for the standard term [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity"]Spell Immunity[/URL]. This is different from the [URL="http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/monsters_g.html#grimlock"]3.0 golem[/URL] which had the following text (taken from the Flesh Golem) [INDENT][B]Special Ability[/B] Magic Immunity (Ex): Flesh golems are immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects, except as follows. Fire- and cold-based effects slow them (as the spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw. An electricity effect breaks any slow effect on the golem and cures 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. For example, a flesh golem hit by a lightning bolt cast by a 5th-level wizard gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18. The golem rolls no saving throw against electricity effects. [/INDENT]In the 3.0 case the golem is explicitely immune to [I]all[/I] spells except where noted. But in the 3.5 case it is entirely consistent that any specific golem listed is not immune to spells that don't allow SR. And indeed the clarified immunity to magic passage under each golem [I]makes no sense[/I] if they are actually immune to spells like Glitterdust. First the word most (an explicit change from 3.0) is entirely redundant if your reading is correct. Second, there is no point explicitely calling spells that allow spell resistance if the golem is intended to be immune to all spells. [/QUOTE]
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