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<blockquote data-quote="Akrasia" data-source="post: 1966526" data-attributes="member: 23012"><p>While I agree that 3E D&D is not as complex or rules heavy as, say, Champions, I disagree that 3E is 'simple'. Or rather, it <em>does have </em> a 'simple core', but that theoretical simplicity is IME buried <em>in practice </em> by the endless number of modifiers that might or might affect any given situation (combat, spell casting, etc.). And I completely disagree that all these additional modifiers and rules are necessary in order for the game to 'answer' any questions that players might have concerning any given situation.</p><p></p><p>From another thread, shurai said:</p><p></p><p>"<span style="font-size: 9px">When was the last time you had to cast a save-able 4d6 damage spell on the defensive at a spell-resistant character? Does turning undead provoke attacks of opportunity? Let's see, 2d6 plus cha, then a d20 check . . . uh, right. Bluff to sneak attack? Lemme see, my bluff vs. his sense motive, then the attack roll, uh, yeah. Remember how long it took each of us to figure out how attacks of opportunity works? Time to roll an attack . . .wait, he gets a 20% miss chance, is that before or after the attack roll? Wait, I threatened, better roll again. Now time to roll damage, which is 2d10+6+d6(fire)+2d8(spirited charge) . . . wait, does the spirited charge bonus get doubled too? Hang on, have to recalculate the damage bonus from strength, because I'm wielding two-handed this round. Whoops, forgot I was fighting defensively, I missed. Oh, forgot the flanking bonus, guess I hit after all. Has Bless worn off yet? That stacks with Bardic Music right? Oh yeah, it doesn't, because it doesn't stack unless they're dodge or circumstance bonuses, right? Or was it luck bonuses? When I cast Aid as a domain spell for the Good domain, does it count as a Good spell because that's not in the description. Nevermind, I'll just polymorph him into a frog. Oh, that's been erratta'd four times since Tuesday? Is that a Full Attack or a Partial Charge?</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">I think those of us who still think d20 is simple need to get a grip . . . a [monkey] grip." </span> -- shurai</p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=112844&page=2&pp=20" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=112844&page=2&pp=20</a></p><p></p><p>That certainly coheres with my experience.</p><p></p><p>I have DM'ed two 3E D&D campaigns. Maybe I'm simple :\ , but I frequently found that things ground to a halt because of rules questions. And the prep time involved in statting up a high level NPC or complex monster was a major pain. (The campaigns were great, and the players enjoyed them. But as a DM I just found the work and rules involved rather grating.)</p><p></p><p>Ultimately, whether a system is 'rules heavy' or 'rules light' depends on how <em>you </em> experience the rules. If 3E D&D feels too 'rules heavy' for you, then it is. It doesn't matter how hard people try to argue that your perception is incorrect.</p><p></p><p>In my case, 3E D&D feels too rules heavy (at least to DM -- I'm happy to be a player in a 3E campaign). Given the frequency with which complaints about the 'heaviness' of 3E rules emerge on these boards -- along with proposals for 'simplifying' 3E -- I am not alone here. (Though I suspect that I belong a minority of gamers on this question.)</p><p></p><p>By contrast, as a GM, I find games like Unisystem and C&C to be 'just right' in terms 'rules weight'. </p><p> <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite6" alt=":cool:" title="Cool :cool:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":cool:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Akrasia, post: 1966526, member: 23012"] While I agree that 3E D&D is not as complex or rules heavy as, say, Champions, I disagree that 3E is 'simple'. Or rather, it [I]does have [/I] a 'simple core', but that theoretical simplicity is IME buried [I]in practice [/I] by the endless number of modifiers that might or might affect any given situation (combat, spell casting, etc.). And I completely disagree that all these additional modifiers and rules are necessary in order for the game to 'answer' any questions that players might have concerning any given situation. From another thread, shurai said: "[SIZE=1]When was the last time you had to cast a save-able 4d6 damage spell on the defensive at a spell-resistant character? Does turning undead provoke attacks of opportunity? Let's see, 2d6 plus cha, then a d20 check . . . uh, right. Bluff to sneak attack? Lemme see, my bluff vs. his sense motive, then the attack roll, uh, yeah. Remember how long it took each of us to figure out how attacks of opportunity works? Time to roll an attack . . .wait, he gets a 20% miss chance, is that before or after the attack roll? Wait, I threatened, better roll again. Now time to roll damage, which is 2d10+6+d6(fire)+2d8(spirited charge) . . . wait, does the spirited charge bonus get doubled too? Hang on, have to recalculate the damage bonus from strength, because I'm wielding two-handed this round. Whoops, forgot I was fighting defensively, I missed. Oh, forgot the flanking bonus, guess I hit after all. Has Bless worn off yet? That stacks with Bardic Music right? Oh yeah, it doesn't, because it doesn't stack unless they're dodge or circumstance bonuses, right? Or was it luck bonuses? When I cast Aid as a domain spell for the Good domain, does it count as a Good spell because that's not in the description. Nevermind, I'll just polymorph him into a frog. Oh, that's been erratta'd four times since Tuesday? Is that a Full Attack or a Partial Charge? I think those of us who still think d20 is simple need to get a grip . . . a [monkey] grip." [/SIZE] -- shurai [url]http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=112844&page=2&pp=20[/url] That certainly coheres with my experience. I have DM'ed two 3E D&D campaigns. Maybe I'm simple :\ , but I frequently found that things ground to a halt because of rules questions. And the prep time involved in statting up a high level NPC or complex monster was a major pain. (The campaigns were great, and the players enjoyed them. But as a DM I just found the work and rules involved rather grating.) Ultimately, whether a system is 'rules heavy' or 'rules light' depends on how [I]you [/I] experience the rules. If 3E D&D feels too 'rules heavy' for you, then it is. It doesn't matter how hard people try to argue that your perception is incorrect. In my case, 3E D&D feels too rules heavy (at least to DM -- I'm happy to be a player in a 3E campaign). Given the frequency with which complaints about the 'heaviness' of 3E rules emerge on these boards -- along with proposals for 'simplifying' 3E -- I am not alone here. (Though I suspect that I belong a minority of gamers on this question.) By contrast, as a GM, I find games like Unisystem and C&C to be 'just right' in terms 'rules weight'. :cool: [/QUOTE]
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