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How to deal with high AC PCs
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<blockquote data-quote="Empirate" data-source="post: 6043067" data-attributes="member: 78958"><p>To me this all sounds like the PC rather pigeonholed himself. Yes, he's got very high AC, but what is that actively accomplishing? Only that he doesn't get attacked very often, because it is mostly futile anway. Smart opponents should just ignore him. You said yourself he can't really draw aggro much, his damage output is mediocre etc.</p><p></p><p>Getting sky-high AC is a trap for PCs to fall in. I can't count how many times I've read threads similar to this one... So many players spend a lot of their resources (and in this case, a lot of the party's resources as well!) on just this one area of defense. They spend too little on ways to actually contribute, in or out of combat, and are <em>still </em>far from untouchable, as even very high AC peters out in usefulness in the mid levels.</p><p></p><p>See, it's not you, @<u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=91954" target="_blank">Friend of the Dork</a></u> , who has a problem. It's your high-AC PC, since 'not being hit by mooks' is really the only thing he's good at. However, that's not a useful skill.</p><p></p><p>Can he kill a dangerous enemy quickly? Can he lock down part of the battlefield? Can he spot incoming threats? Can he buff or heal his buddies? Can he make the enemy less effective at taking out the party (other than himself)? Can he command and keep the attention of the most dangerous foe? Can he exploit his mobility/fighting style/special moves to get to and take on hard-to-reach enemies? Etc.</p><p></p><p>If the answer to most or all of these questions is "no", your problem PC has effectively neutered himself by going after AC at the cost of everything else.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That said, it's your job as a DM to make the game fun and challenging for everybody. Your problem PC has made the job harder, in that he hyperspecialized, which always restricts the DM's decision corridors into narrower and less interesting shapes. You need to make sure your player feels like his "investment" into high AC paid off. But you also need to make sure he occasionally feels the sting of not being effective in most other regards.</p><p></p><p>The first part seems rather simple at first glance: involve a few mooks in every battle whose only job is to flail at him ineffectually. Gives him something to do, even if it's inconsequential to the battle at large. Occupy him with fodder, so he feels useful, while the other PCs get served with the 'real' battle. In boss battles, let the boss waste a round or two beating on him, then change tactics. That way, the high AC bought a couple rounds off the BBEG, which is good payoff.</p><p></p><p>The second part (challenging him, showing him there's still a lot of stuff he can't do jack about) is a bit harder, since it needs to be done with moderation, but also with a firm hand. Others have enumerated the myriad ways of going about this, from touch attacks to combat maneuvers to magic to certain monsters' special abilities to simply ganging up in the dozens.</p><p></p><p>But I think it's actually more important to bring up situations in which the PC sees how he might have contributed, had he picked an even slightly different area of expertise. For example, have melee enemies simply pass him by and ignore the turtle. They could even utter threats like "just you wait until we kill your buddies, then it's gonna be your turn!"</p><p></p><p>Make sure enemies react accordingly to danger that's coming their way. If they're scorched by a PC blaster mage, let there be shouts of "stop that goddamn spellcaster! Take him down at all costs!" If there's a PC sniper, enemies should shout "watch out for the sniper! He got Bob, I repeat, Bob is down! Somebody engage that sniper!" If there's a sneak attacker, let people act afraid of going toe to toe with him without somebody covering their backs. Etc.</p><p></p><p>This should make clear that enemies are not impressed by somebody standing around in full plate, hitting the air. What they <em>are</em> impressed by is somebody actually doing a good job of killing them!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>EDIT: Oh, and I wanted to address the misleading information in two posts right above, as well. @<u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=3586" target="_blank">MerricB</a></u> and @<u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a></u> advise rules changes, while interestingly both are saying PF or 3E isn't their primary system, but still going into details how the system is broken. Breaking out the banhammer instead of devising a more differentiated view of things (like this thread has done in a lot of instances) is what it boils down to. A rules change is advised that makes not only @<u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=23396" target="_blank">Drowbane</a></u> want to facepalm. Although I'd want to facepalm for a slightly different reason: Not only is nerfing an effective fighter outright unnecessary, the particular nerf advocated here is wholly beside the point anyway, since the fighter in question isn't even very effective!</p><p></p><p>Their point rests on an assumption that is put like this by MerricB: "AC outstrips attack quite easily if magic items are readily available". Which is patently false. Whether magic is readily available (and not only to the PCs, I'm assuming!) or not, enemy NPCs and level appropriate monsters usually don't have a hard time hitting a given PC's AC.</p><p>Unless, of course, the PC in question invests so much into AC that other areas of investment are left lacking as a result. Sure, you can get very high AC, but AC and attack bonuses don't exist in a vacuum. You pay <em>huge </em>opportunity costs to increase just one area of defense to a point where level-appropriate foes can't damage you by attacking that defense. For once, you give up increasing other defenses to a great degree, ironically making you more vulnerable overall. Furthermore, you give up proactive effectiveness. In all of 3.x/PF, good <em>and varied</em> offense >>> good defense. It's just exceedingly hard to be truly bullet proof <em>and </em>useful.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Empirate, post: 6043067, member: 78958"] To me this all sounds like the PC rather pigeonholed himself. Yes, he's got very high AC, but what is that actively accomplishing? Only that he doesn't get attacked very often, because it is mostly futile anway. Smart opponents should just ignore him. You said yourself he can't really draw aggro much, his damage output is mediocre etc. Getting sky-high AC is a trap for PCs to fall in. I can't count how many times I've read threads similar to this one... So many players spend a lot of their resources (and in this case, a lot of the party's resources as well!) on just this one area of defense. They spend too little on ways to actually contribute, in or out of combat, and are [I]still [/I]far from untouchable, as even very high AC peters out in usefulness in the mid levels. See, it's not you, @[U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=91954"]Friend of the Dork[/URL][/U] , who has a problem. It's your high-AC PC, since 'not being hit by mooks' is really the only thing he's good at. However, that's not a useful skill. Can he kill a dangerous enemy quickly? Can he lock down part of the battlefield? Can he spot incoming threats? Can he buff or heal his buddies? Can he make the enemy less effective at taking out the party (other than himself)? Can he command and keep the attention of the most dangerous foe? Can he exploit his mobility/fighting style/special moves to get to and take on hard-to-reach enemies? Etc. If the answer to most or all of these questions is "no", your problem PC has effectively neutered himself by going after AC at the cost of everything else. That said, it's your job as a DM to make the game fun and challenging for everybody. Your problem PC has made the job harder, in that he hyperspecialized, which always restricts the DM's decision corridors into narrower and less interesting shapes. You need to make sure your player feels like his "investment" into high AC paid off. But you also need to make sure he occasionally feels the sting of not being effective in most other regards. The first part seems rather simple at first glance: involve a few mooks in every battle whose only job is to flail at him ineffectually. Gives him something to do, even if it's inconsequential to the battle at large. Occupy him with fodder, so he feels useful, while the other PCs get served with the 'real' battle. In boss battles, let the boss waste a round or two beating on him, then change tactics. That way, the high AC bought a couple rounds off the BBEG, which is good payoff. The second part (challenging him, showing him there's still a lot of stuff he can't do jack about) is a bit harder, since it needs to be done with moderation, but also with a firm hand. Others have enumerated the myriad ways of going about this, from touch attacks to combat maneuvers to magic to certain monsters' special abilities to simply ganging up in the dozens. But I think it's actually more important to bring up situations in which the PC sees how he might have contributed, had he picked an even slightly different area of expertise. For example, have melee enemies simply pass him by and ignore the turtle. They could even utter threats like "just you wait until we kill your buddies, then it's gonna be your turn!" Make sure enemies react accordingly to danger that's coming their way. If they're scorched by a PC blaster mage, let there be shouts of "stop that goddamn spellcaster! Take him down at all costs!" If there's a PC sniper, enemies should shout "watch out for the sniper! He got Bob, I repeat, Bob is down! Somebody engage that sniper!" If there's a sneak attacker, let people act afraid of going toe to toe with him without somebody covering their backs. Etc. This should make clear that enemies are not impressed by somebody standing around in full plate, hitting the air. What they [I]are[/I] impressed by is somebody actually doing a good job of killing them! EDIT: Oh, and I wanted to address the misleading information in two posts right above, as well. @[U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=3586"]MerricB[/URL][/U] and @[U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582"]pemerton[/URL][/U] advise rules changes, while interestingly both are saying PF or 3E isn't their primary system, but still going into details how the system is broken. Breaking out the banhammer instead of devising a more differentiated view of things (like this thread has done in a lot of instances) is what it boils down to. A rules change is advised that makes not only @[U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=23396"]Drowbane[/URL][/U] want to facepalm. Although I'd want to facepalm for a slightly different reason: Not only is nerfing an effective fighter outright unnecessary, the particular nerf advocated here is wholly beside the point anyway, since the fighter in question isn't even very effective! Their point rests on an assumption that is put like this by MerricB: "AC outstrips attack quite easily if magic items are readily available". Which is patently false. Whether magic is readily available (and not only to the PCs, I'm assuming!) or not, enemy NPCs and level appropriate monsters usually don't have a hard time hitting a given PC's AC. Unless, of course, the PC in question invests so much into AC that other areas of investment are left lacking as a result. Sure, you can get very high AC, but AC and attack bonuses don't exist in a vacuum. You pay [I]huge [/I]opportunity costs to increase just one area of defense to a point where level-appropriate foes can't damage you by attacking that defense. For once, you give up increasing other defenses to a great degree, ironically making you more vulnerable overall. Furthermore, you give up proactive effectiveness. In all of 3.x/PF, good [I]and varied[/I] offense >>> good defense. It's just exceedingly hard to be truly bullet proof [I]and [/I]useful. [/QUOTE]
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