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How to keep players motivated (or, "change that smelly old carrot once in a while")
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<blockquote data-quote="The Sigil" data-source="post: 183528" data-attributes="member: 2013"><p><strong>Points taken...</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>I won't dispute that these are somewhat specific and confining. The larger point I was trying to make is that in the Boxed Sets, DMs are at least encouraged to swap carrots and given examples of various types of carrots. In the 3e DMG, almost no advice is given on how to do it. In other words, it's not the specific selection of carrots that I am taking issue with, it's the concept of "you can change carrots" that doesn't seem to be taught in the 3e DMG. </p><p></p><p>As mentioned, Prestige Classes can be one of them, too (which, BTW, the Boxed Sets put out there with the Druid, Paladin, and Avenger "Prestige Classes"). There is a limitless variety of carrots. However, as another poster mentioned, the failure of most current RPGs is that they do not sufficiently address the issue of "how to create an adventure" and "how to be creative as a DM." They are so focused on game mechanics that they forget to address the "fine art of DMing" - including how to create a memorable dungeon, how to motivate players, and (especially) giving numerous examples. For "veteran" DMs, this is not a problem - but for newbie DMs, it IS a problem.</p><p></p><p>IIRC, the Basic Set had one full level of a dungeon to get you started, with maps to a second level and suggestions on a third (earlier editions came with Keep on the Borderlands). The Expert Set came with the Isle of Dread adventure. The Companion Set came with sample tournaments and prizes. The Masters Set came with sample artifacts and suggested quest ideas. In every case, it wasn't just "here are the rules," but rather "here are the rules and here's what you can do with them."</p><p></p><p></p><p>Agree completely, and I had forgotten about that section in Traveller. All five of the elements are not always there by necessity, but it is a very good point. It's one of the reasons that I (unlike many) rather liked Necromancer Games' "The Wizard's Amulet." I heard a lot of people complaining, "it's too short. It's too simplistic." I thought it was perfect for an "introductory adventure." It contained numerous "sidebar" discussions on how to use the rules, how to scale an encounter, how to execute deux ex machina without it feeling forced if the PCs are getting thumped, and so on. </p><p></p><p>Was it a little campy and not quite mechanically sound? Perhaps. But it fills a niche for beginning DMs that WotC itself (and many other publishers) missed - the all-important "first adventure" (as in, the DM's first adventure, not the PCs' first adventure). I am not saying that the Boxed Sets' choice of carrots are all-encompassing or perfect. I am saying, "at least they showed you how to change things up," something that 3e, in my mind, failed to do. Heck, 1e and 2e failed to do it. Is this a flaw with the game itself? Absolutely not. However, it is kind of a bad oversight - much like your first calculus teacher assuming his students are already as fluent with calculus as he is.</p><p></p><p>Many of us "old-timers" don't need these lessons because we learned them long ago. That's why we don't miss them when they are absent. In fact, we usually get a little bit annoyed if they are included. As anecdotal evidence, I point to the Hero Builder's Guidebook. Most of the reviews I saw were, "what a piece of crap - anyone who's been in role-playing for any significant amount of time already knows this. Why would WotC print this garbage? I am offended that they are trying to charge money for it!" That was my first reaction, too. I certainly won't buy the thing.</p><p></p><p>Then I stumbled across a review (can't remember where - it might even be yours for all I know, Psion <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> ) that said, in essence, "if you are familiar with RPGs, this book wasn't MEANT for you and no wonder you don't like it... it was meant for the new guy... you know, the guy WITHOUT any significant amount of time playing RPGs (the guy who is NOT in the group you are complaining doesn't need this stuff). He doesn't know the common assumptions. He may need help getting a kickstart. The thing that disappoints me is that they are charging the new guy extra - this material really belongs in the Players' Handbook. The Players' Handbook is supposed to teach you how to play - and teaching you how to play is more than just explaining the dry rules, it's also about explaining how to role-play and how to come up with a character concept." And you know what? After reading that and thinking about it, I had to agree with that assessment. I won't buy it myself, because I don't need it, but I *will* recommend it to new players.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, I've kind of gone long and wordy, but it boils down to this...</p><p></p><p>The exact choice of carrots wasn't important - the illustration of the fact that there are different carrots - and their use - was important because it taught you "how to swap carrots" (more so than which carrots to use). I believe it was an important part of the Boxed Sets (and other introductory games such as Traveller) that 3rd Edition missed in the Core Rulebooks by only giving perfunctory lip service to these "other rewards" rather than actively illustrating how to use them.</p><p></p><p>We can argue about what carrots taste good all day. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> My point was maybe there's more to salad than carrots - but 3e does a poor job of telling us what those other parts might be. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>--The Sigil</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The Sigil, post: 183528, member: 2013"] [b]Points taken...[/b] I won't dispute that these are somewhat specific and confining. The larger point I was trying to make is that in the Boxed Sets, DMs are at least encouraged to swap carrots and given examples of various types of carrots. In the 3e DMG, almost no advice is given on how to do it. In other words, it's not the specific selection of carrots that I am taking issue with, it's the concept of "you can change carrots" that doesn't seem to be taught in the 3e DMG. As mentioned, Prestige Classes can be one of them, too (which, BTW, the Boxed Sets put out there with the Druid, Paladin, and Avenger "Prestige Classes"). There is a limitless variety of carrots. However, as another poster mentioned, the failure of most current RPGs is that they do not sufficiently address the issue of "how to create an adventure" and "how to be creative as a DM." They are so focused on game mechanics that they forget to address the "fine art of DMing" - including how to create a memorable dungeon, how to motivate players, and (especially) giving numerous examples. For "veteran" DMs, this is not a problem - but for newbie DMs, it IS a problem. IIRC, the Basic Set had one full level of a dungeon to get you started, with maps to a second level and suggestions on a third (earlier editions came with Keep on the Borderlands). The Expert Set came with the Isle of Dread adventure. The Companion Set came with sample tournaments and prizes. The Masters Set came with sample artifacts and suggested quest ideas. In every case, it wasn't just "here are the rules," but rather "here are the rules and here's what you can do with them." Agree completely, and I had forgotten about that section in Traveller. All five of the elements are not always there by necessity, but it is a very good point. It's one of the reasons that I (unlike many) rather liked Necromancer Games' "The Wizard's Amulet." I heard a lot of people complaining, "it's too short. It's too simplistic." I thought it was perfect for an "introductory adventure." It contained numerous "sidebar" discussions on how to use the rules, how to scale an encounter, how to execute deux ex machina without it feeling forced if the PCs are getting thumped, and so on. Was it a little campy and not quite mechanically sound? Perhaps. But it fills a niche for beginning DMs that WotC itself (and many other publishers) missed - the all-important "first adventure" (as in, the DM's first adventure, not the PCs' first adventure). I am not saying that the Boxed Sets' choice of carrots are all-encompassing or perfect. I am saying, "at least they showed you how to change things up," something that 3e, in my mind, failed to do. Heck, 1e and 2e failed to do it. Is this a flaw with the game itself? Absolutely not. However, it is kind of a bad oversight - much like your first calculus teacher assuming his students are already as fluent with calculus as he is. Many of us "old-timers" don't need these lessons because we learned them long ago. That's why we don't miss them when they are absent. In fact, we usually get a little bit annoyed if they are included. As anecdotal evidence, I point to the Hero Builder's Guidebook. Most of the reviews I saw were, "what a piece of crap - anyone who's been in role-playing for any significant amount of time already knows this. Why would WotC print this garbage? I am offended that they are trying to charge money for it!" That was my first reaction, too. I certainly won't buy the thing. Then I stumbled across a review (can't remember where - it might even be yours for all I know, Psion :) ) that said, in essence, "if you are familiar with RPGs, this book wasn't MEANT for you and no wonder you don't like it... it was meant for the new guy... you know, the guy WITHOUT any significant amount of time playing RPGs (the guy who is NOT in the group you are complaining doesn't need this stuff). He doesn't know the common assumptions. He may need help getting a kickstart. The thing that disappoints me is that they are charging the new guy extra - this material really belongs in the Players' Handbook. The Players' Handbook is supposed to teach you how to play - and teaching you how to play is more than just explaining the dry rules, it's also about explaining how to role-play and how to come up with a character concept." And you know what? After reading that and thinking about it, I had to agree with that assessment. I won't buy it myself, because I don't need it, but I *will* recommend it to new players. Anyway, I've kind of gone long and wordy, but it boils down to this... The exact choice of carrots wasn't important - the illustration of the fact that there are different carrots - and their use - was important because it taught you "how to swap carrots" (more so than which carrots to use). I believe it was an important part of the Boxed Sets (and other introductory games such as Traveller) that 3rd Edition missed in the Core Rulebooks by only giving perfunctory lip service to these "other rewards" rather than actively illustrating how to use them. We can argue about what carrots taste good all day. :) My point was maybe there's more to salad than carrots - but 3e does a poor job of telling us what those other parts might be. ;) --The Sigil [/QUOTE]
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