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I don't get the dislike of healing surges
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<blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5697417" data-attributes="member: 6668292"><p>First, let me compliment you on your tone. Though you disagree with what others think, you haven't blown things up at all. I think people should try to discuss things with a certain amount of tact in this thread (or on these boards in general), so I'm looking forward to being able to do so with you.</p><p></p><p>Second, I really don't think your conclusion about D&D and realism is correct. As another poster has pointed out, if you were fighting a human enemy in D&D, and the GM described your blow as lopping his head off, but also described him as continuing to attack you, you wouldn't assume that the enemy was a normal human. You'd think, "well, something's up" and probably be momentarily surprised, and maybe intrigued. This is because, realistically, a human dies when his head is lopped off.</p><p></p><p>I feel as if you're saying, "if you take any concept, and progress it to the natural extreme, it doesn't make for a good play experience." The problem with that, to me, is that you're taking it to the extreme for some reason. The game is heavily abstracted, yes, <em>but with nods to realism all over the place</em>. In fact, the abstractions are usually glossing over complicated real life actions (attack roll, etc.). No, having a perfectly realistic game isn't desirable, but neither is it the goal. No one should be worrying about a completely realistic D&D with no abstractions cropping up.</p><p></p><p>The reason people like nods to realism (or verisimilitude, if you'd prefer that word), really, is because it lets them connect to the world. The internal logic of a fantasy world based on what we -as real life humans- rely on makes for a game that is much easier to immerse in. You're not constantly having to figure out how the world works differently from ours. Abstractions of these real life translations help speed up game play, increase fun (by adding an element of randomness), and generally giving us a way to mimic something we could theoretically experience in real life (most of the time, at least; things like spells are an exception, but probably don't take up the bulk of any session).</p><p></p><p>Taking all of this into account, realism is an extremely useful tool for RPGs. It's a way to immerse. And while immersion is not a goal that everyone will share, it's definitely a common goal among a significant section of those who play RPGs. Therefore, I find it rather intelligent to pander to this crowd if you plan to sell RPGs. You obviously have a balance you want to strike between crowds, but breaking the "suspension of disbelief" is something you don't want to do for the majority of your player base if you can help it. And, since we're all using a shared imaginative space, the "suspension of disbelief" is going to vary wildly. That's why something like healing surges cause objections; people already dislike certain aspects of hit points, and now you've compounded that issue by adding a mechanic that makes for even more baffling situations to come up. You now have retroactive descriptions of wounds, for instance. It's now, "the orc 'hit' you for 11 damage, and I'll let you know how bad it is at the end of combat" instead of "the orc slams his sword into the left side of your armor, and you feel blood, and it feels pretty bad. Take 11 damage."</p><p></p><p>All told, the healing surge mechanic is just compounding already existing problems. Before, hit points gave us falling damage, injury poison, and the like, and now we have all this and retroactive descriptions. It's not that there for no problem with hit points before, it's that it's become worse.</p><p></p><p>As I've mentioned previously in this thread, separating the hit point abstractions into two separate pools of abstraction is a solution with a lot of merit: </p><p>(1) You have one pool that's "turning bad wounds into less bad wounds, taking physical punishment, etc." that takes a long time to recover, and...</p><p>(2) You have a second pool that's "fatigue, ability to completely avoid damage, etc." that takes a very short amount of time to recover.</p><p></p><p>With this method, you can have certain effects reflect the description as necessary. Falling completely bypasses the "fatigue" pool, and deals damage directly to your "physical" pool. Being set on fire does the same. As does being immersed in lava. As does retroactive descriptions. And so on. So many issues with hit points over the past 35 years disappear.</p><p></p><p>Because, really, the problem with healing surges are somewhat unique, but they're an extension of the problem with hit points as they stand now. Your conclusion of "If you're not ok with HS because they aren't realistic, then you're not ok with D&D in general" just does not ring true to me.</p><p></p><p>Just my thoughts on it, though. Make of them what you will. As always, play what you like <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JamesonCourage, post: 5697417, member: 6668292"] First, let me compliment you on your tone. Though you disagree with what others think, you haven't blown things up at all. I think people should try to discuss things with a certain amount of tact in this thread (or on these boards in general), so I'm looking forward to being able to do so with you. Second, I really don't think your conclusion about D&D and realism is correct. As another poster has pointed out, if you were fighting a human enemy in D&D, and the GM described your blow as lopping his head off, but also described him as continuing to attack you, you wouldn't assume that the enemy was a normal human. You'd think, "well, something's up" and probably be momentarily surprised, and maybe intrigued. This is because, realistically, a human dies when his head is lopped off. I feel as if you're saying, "if you take any concept, and progress it to the natural extreme, it doesn't make for a good play experience." The problem with that, to me, is that you're taking it to the extreme for some reason. The game is heavily abstracted, yes, [I]but with nods to realism all over the place[/I]. In fact, the abstractions are usually glossing over complicated real life actions (attack roll, etc.). No, having a perfectly realistic game isn't desirable, but neither is it the goal. No one should be worrying about a completely realistic D&D with no abstractions cropping up. The reason people like nods to realism (or verisimilitude, if you'd prefer that word), really, is because it lets them connect to the world. The internal logic of a fantasy world based on what we -as real life humans- rely on makes for a game that is much easier to immerse in. You're not constantly having to figure out how the world works differently from ours. Abstractions of these real life translations help speed up game play, increase fun (by adding an element of randomness), and generally giving us a way to mimic something we could theoretically experience in real life (most of the time, at least; things like spells are an exception, but probably don't take up the bulk of any session). Taking all of this into account, realism is an extremely useful tool for RPGs. It's a way to immerse. And while immersion is not a goal that everyone will share, it's definitely a common goal among a significant section of those who play RPGs. Therefore, I find it rather intelligent to pander to this crowd if you plan to sell RPGs. You obviously have a balance you want to strike between crowds, but breaking the "suspension of disbelief" is something you don't want to do for the majority of your player base if you can help it. And, since we're all using a shared imaginative space, the "suspension of disbelief" is going to vary wildly. That's why something like healing surges cause objections; people already dislike certain aspects of hit points, and now you've compounded that issue by adding a mechanic that makes for even more baffling situations to come up. You now have retroactive descriptions of wounds, for instance. It's now, "the orc 'hit' you for 11 damage, and I'll let you know how bad it is at the end of combat" instead of "the orc slams his sword into the left side of your armor, and you feel blood, and it feels pretty bad. Take 11 damage." All told, the healing surge mechanic is just compounding already existing problems. Before, hit points gave us falling damage, injury poison, and the like, and now we have all this and retroactive descriptions. It's not that there for no problem with hit points before, it's that it's become worse. As I've mentioned previously in this thread, separating the hit point abstractions into two separate pools of abstraction is a solution with a lot of merit: (1) You have one pool that's "turning bad wounds into less bad wounds, taking physical punishment, etc." that takes a long time to recover, and... (2) You have a second pool that's "fatigue, ability to completely avoid damage, etc." that takes a very short amount of time to recover. With this method, you can have certain effects reflect the description as necessary. Falling completely bypasses the "fatigue" pool, and deals damage directly to your "physical" pool. Being set on fire does the same. As does being immersed in lava. As does retroactive descriptions. And so on. So many issues with hit points over the past 35 years disappear. Because, really, the problem with healing surges are somewhat unique, but they're an extension of the problem with hit points as they stand now. Your conclusion of "If you're not ok with HS because they aren't realistic, then you're not ok with D&D in general" just does not ring true to me. Just my thoughts on it, though. Make of them what you will. As always, play what you like :) [/QUOTE]
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I don't get the dislike of healing surges
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