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I don't get the dislike of healing surges
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<blockquote data-quote="Gaerek" data-source="post: 5698049" data-attributes="member: 73666"><p>This may have already been talked about, but I haven't read the thread to the end, since I wanted to reply to Jameson. But, unfortunately, Hit Point loss, has never fully represented taking physical damage. Not with OD&D, 1e, 2e, 3.x, PF, 4e, not with any of them. Hit points have always been a very abstract concept that includes a bunch of factors, including, but certainly not limited to, physical health, mental health, endurance, vitality, ability to mitigate damage, glancing blows, luck, etc. Gary Gygax himself spoke about this, as far as I know, as early as the 1e DMG.</p><p> </p><p>There are serious problems with thinking of HP as ONLY physical damage, more so than what you already spoke of. First and foremost, in my mind, if you take a sword hit that does 50% of your physical damage, how are you now able to continue fighting at 100%? I like to think of Boromir in LotR, when he takes the arrow in the chest. He's still conscious, he still has some motor activity, but he certainly cannot fight at 100%. He tries to fight of course, but as he keeps taking arrows, he becomes weaker and weaker.</p><p> </p><p>Here's a quote from the 1e DMG, written by Mr. Gygax himself. (It's the only one I could find in a short amount of time, without access to my books, and at work, but it should suffice).</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Bolded area is key to understanding that HP do not completely reflect actual, physical damage.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I'm not going to respond to everything you've written, mainly because I believe we're pretty close to being on the same page. I appreciate your being civil as well, and your willingness to agree to disagree. In the end, I like your sig, as it pretty much sums up my feelings. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>This is certainly correct. More simulation = more abstraction. More gamey = less abstraction. Abstraction isn't a bad thing, per se, but too much interferes with the actual game play. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>And this might be the difference. Immersion, for my regular group, comes secondary to having fun. We certainly enjoy immersion, don't get me wrong, but if it interferes with other things that make the game fun for us, we're willing to let a bit go. This is where the suspension of disbelief comes in. I have players in my group that run the gamut as well. For one of my players, he shows up at our games because he wants to "Kill some <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />." I have another player who doesn't particularly care for the combat system of 4e, but loves how unrestricted it is (with regards to alignment, and other "forced RP" mechanics of older systems) for RP, so he's willing to deal with the combat system for the immersion it gives him in other areas. My other players fall somewhere in between. As for me, as a player, I don't care what system I'm playing, I just want to play. As a DM, well, at this point, I won't DM anything but 4e, but I have other reasons for that, none of which have anything to do with the HS mechanic. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Whole heartedly agree. My group is in that category.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Most games can get away without a real heave base in realism. A tabletop RPG, like D&D, really can't. That's sort of the point of the game. My problem is rules that attempt to emulate reality by sacrificing fun. This is why every successful MMO (sorry to bring up video games, it's just a good example) doesn't have permanent death. And in most cases, their explanation was extremely half-assed. Star Wars Galaxies was one of the worst, if you've ever played that. They added "clone resurrection" in a world where nothing like this was ever mentioned in any movie, book, or source material. (I know, clones exsist, but the idea of cloning yourself after you die, did not.) But they knew that the game wouldn't be fun if you had to start over everytime you died.</p><p> </p><p>I know many people disagree, but the Healing Surge Stick (aka. Wand of CLW) and required Cleric made the game less fun for me and my group. Hence, I'm ok with healing surges, even if they aren't realistic. And removing magic shops and not handing out Wand of CLW won't work if your players are more than willing to make them, and mine were. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Just wanted to make a quick comment on this. According to all pre-4e rulesets, if my players have a Wand of CLW with enough charges, they could continue literally indefinately, without stopping for sleep/rest. Of course, the magic users wouldn't get their spells back, but the melee classes would never have to stop, ever. 4e gives each character a set amount of endurance. When you're out of HS, you pretty much need to stop. Now, before you comment, I know, the dual health, vitality system you proposed would fix this, but without it (like we are now) 4e means you must rest. 3e and prior, you don't.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>One of the biggest selling points of 4e to me was the cinematic feel of everything. John McClane in Die Hard should have been incapacitated after the first 20 minutes of the movie. Instead, he lasted the entire length of the movie and defeated the BBEG, Professor Snape. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p> </p><p>It really takes away from that feel if my players have to go back to town to rest at the inn for 2 weeks after every 3 or 4 encounters. I'd quit a game like that, so would my players. Again, we're willing to suspend some disbelief to have that slightly over-the-top, cinematic feel.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Again, my players characters are heroes in the vein of any fantasy/action movie. In LotR, sure, Frodo had to rest after he got stabbed by the Nazgul, but after that point, he never had much of an extended break. Any real person wouldn't have been able to do what he did. They make the setting progress (either by actively affecting it, or choosing not to participate in something). The setting doesn't make my players progress.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Bolded is the key for me. That's not heroic. That's normal. Characters aren't normal. They are heroes. I agree with a lot of the travel stuff, but at a certain point, there's no reason why an 18th level wizard (thinking 3e and prior) can't go pretty much wherever he wants to go. He's practically a god in anything else he does, but he has to walk from town to town? Not very heroic. At low levels? Sure, you're hoofing it.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Here it is. The key point. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> It looks like we will be agreeing to disagree.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Put this in a game and I'll play it. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Seems like if gives the best of both worlds. Let's hope Mr. Cook can do something like this for 5e.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>From what I've seen, people either love or hate Monte Cook. For me, I like a lot of what he's done. But there are some things that are questionable. I don't like the 3e skill system. I think the more simplified 4e system is superior. But that's just an opinion. Sure he created the base of current skill system, but the older one just got out of hand very quickly.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I'm with you here. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gaerek, post: 5698049, member: 73666"] This may have already been talked about, but I haven't read the thread to the end, since I wanted to reply to Jameson. But, unfortunately, Hit Point loss, has never fully represented taking physical damage. Not with OD&D, 1e, 2e, 3.x, PF, 4e, not with any of them. Hit points have always been a very abstract concept that includes a bunch of factors, including, but certainly not limited to, physical health, mental health, endurance, vitality, ability to mitigate damage, glancing blows, luck, etc. Gary Gygax himself spoke about this, as far as I know, as early as the 1e DMG. There are serious problems with thinking of HP as ONLY physical damage, more so than what you already spoke of. First and foremost, in my mind, if you take a sword hit that does 50% of your physical damage, how are you now able to continue fighting at 100%? I like to think of Boromir in LotR, when he takes the arrow in the chest. He's still conscious, he still has some motor activity, but he certainly cannot fight at 100%. He tries to fight of course, but as he keeps taking arrows, he becomes weaker and weaker. Here's a quote from the 1e DMG, written by Mr. Gygax himself. (It's the only one I could find in a short amount of time, without access to my books, and at work, but it should suffice). Bolded area is key to understanding that HP do not completely reflect actual, physical damage. I'm not going to respond to everything you've written, mainly because I believe we're pretty close to being on the same page. I appreciate your being civil as well, and your willingness to agree to disagree. In the end, I like your sig, as it pretty much sums up my feelings. :) This is certainly correct. More simulation = more abstraction. More gamey = less abstraction. Abstraction isn't a bad thing, per se, but too much interferes with the actual game play. And this might be the difference. Immersion, for my regular group, comes secondary to having fun. We certainly enjoy immersion, don't get me wrong, but if it interferes with other things that make the game fun for us, we're willing to let a bit go. This is where the suspension of disbelief comes in. I have players in my group that run the gamut as well. For one of my players, he shows up at our games because he wants to "Kill some :):):):)." I have another player who doesn't particularly care for the combat system of 4e, but loves how unrestricted it is (with regards to alignment, and other "forced RP" mechanics of older systems) for RP, so he's willing to deal with the combat system for the immersion it gives him in other areas. My other players fall somewhere in between. As for me, as a player, I don't care what system I'm playing, I just want to play. As a DM, well, at this point, I won't DM anything but 4e, but I have other reasons for that, none of which have anything to do with the HS mechanic. :) Whole heartedly agree. My group is in that category. Most games can get away without a real heave base in realism. A tabletop RPG, like D&D, really can't. That's sort of the point of the game. My problem is rules that attempt to emulate reality by sacrificing fun. This is why every successful MMO (sorry to bring up video games, it's just a good example) doesn't have permanent death. And in most cases, their explanation was extremely half-assed. Star Wars Galaxies was one of the worst, if you've ever played that. They added "clone resurrection" in a world where nothing like this was ever mentioned in any movie, book, or source material. (I know, clones exsist, but the idea of cloning yourself after you die, did not.) But they knew that the game wouldn't be fun if you had to start over everytime you died. I know many people disagree, but the Healing Surge Stick (aka. Wand of CLW) and required Cleric made the game less fun for me and my group. Hence, I'm ok with healing surges, even if they aren't realistic. And removing magic shops and not handing out Wand of CLW won't work if your players are more than willing to make them, and mine were. :) Just wanted to make a quick comment on this. According to all pre-4e rulesets, if my players have a Wand of CLW with enough charges, they could continue literally indefinately, without stopping for sleep/rest. Of course, the magic users wouldn't get their spells back, but the melee classes would never have to stop, ever. 4e gives each character a set amount of endurance. When you're out of HS, you pretty much need to stop. Now, before you comment, I know, the dual health, vitality system you proposed would fix this, but without it (like we are now) 4e means you must rest. 3e and prior, you don't. One of the biggest selling points of 4e to me was the cinematic feel of everything. John McClane in Die Hard should have been incapacitated after the first 20 minutes of the movie. Instead, he lasted the entire length of the movie and defeated the BBEG, Professor Snape. :D It really takes away from that feel if my players have to go back to town to rest at the inn for 2 weeks after every 3 or 4 encounters. I'd quit a game like that, so would my players. Again, we're willing to suspend some disbelief to have that slightly over-the-top, cinematic feel. Again, my players characters are heroes in the vein of any fantasy/action movie. In LotR, sure, Frodo had to rest after he got stabbed by the Nazgul, but after that point, he never had much of an extended break. Any real person wouldn't have been able to do what he did. They make the setting progress (either by actively affecting it, or choosing not to participate in something). The setting doesn't make my players progress. Bolded is the key for me. That's not heroic. That's normal. Characters aren't normal. They are heroes. I agree with a lot of the travel stuff, but at a certain point, there's no reason why an 18th level wizard (thinking 3e and prior) can't go pretty much wherever he wants to go. He's practically a god in anything else he does, but he has to walk from town to town? Not very heroic. At low levels? Sure, you're hoofing it. Here it is. The key point. :) It looks like we will be agreeing to disagree. Put this in a game and I'll play it. :) Seems like if gives the best of both worlds. Let's hope Mr. Cook can do something like this for 5e. From what I've seen, people either love or hate Monte Cook. For me, I like a lot of what he's done. But there are some things that are questionable. I don't like the 3e skill system. I think the more simplified 4e system is superior. But that's just an opinion. Sure he created the base of current skill system, but the older one just got out of hand very quickly. I'm with you here. :) [/QUOTE]
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