Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
I don't get the dislike of healing surges
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5730657" data-attributes="member: 6668292"><p>Well, you're the one who said it'd obliterate them. I showed that's not necessarily true (using the base assumptions of the game, just like you were talking about). And, you've been talking about the core assumptions of the game recently, right? I mean, wands of CLW are assumed because they're cheap and available according to the DMG? By that token, shouldn't these level 1 & 2 spells be available to level 4 characters? </p><p></p><p>Your statement wasn't "magic is broken." It has problems, which is why I toned it down in my RPG. Your statement was basically "8 ogres will obliterate a 4th level 3.X party, where that's not the case in earlier editions." I disagreed, and showed why. Passing it off as "well, magic is broken" is true in a sense, but it demonstrates that your point isn't as valid as it was presented.</p><p></p><p></p><p>As I pointed out, if you're picking the right fights, you won't be. <em>Entangle</em> is a level 1 spell that lasts 4 minutes at level 4, and it uses up a single level 1 spell slot (you have 4 level 1's, and 3 level 2's). So, 1/7 of your spells above level 0. Then, you just ride around on horseback, picking off ogres while skirting the edge of the <em>Entangle</em> spell.</p><p></p><p>I talked about the "open a door and there's 8 ogres" to show that's it's possible to not be "obliterated" by your 8 ogres example, even when it's not what you were aiming for (which is picking and choosing your battles).</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's very much in line with 4e's controller role. While magic is too powerful in 3.X from a game balance perspective (in my opinion), I have no idea how that proves your point (that 3.X is more deadly using base assumptions).</p><p></p><p></p><p>The one with 7 players and henchmen? I'd trust 7 non-casters to take out 8 ogres on horseback in 3.X. Again, picking and choosing your battles. Pepper them at ranged, focus fire, and keep moving. All out run, stop and shoot, all out run, stop and shoot. Dead ogres.</p><p></p><p></p><p>They'd have to get to you, right? Didn't I mention bottlenecking?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Blind ogres that are probably prone from <em>Grease</em>, while the Fighter is sitting back with a Summon Nature's Ally I in between him and them (with him 10 feet behind the summon). I think I addressed all of this in my post.</p><p></p><p></p><p>But he probably won't go down. If he does, you keep spontaneously casting summons and staying 10 feet behind them. They'll clog the corridor and keep you out of range.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I was just pointing out that with proper player tactics, you can do a lot. You seemed to not be able to fathom how. I hope you can see how, now. A <em>Grease</em> spell will basically immobilize a Frost Giant Jarl at CR 17 (make a DC 10 Balance check at -5). That's a level 1 spell.</p><p></p><p>No, 3.X wasn't great at placing CR or as good at making out-of-the-gate balanced encounters as 4e is. However, you're basing your assumption that beating higher CR enemies this easily is basically impossible. I'm saying that in 3.X, that may not be the right call to make.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, we're close to agreement with this. Though, in 3.X it'd be assumed that you're have 5-ish spellcasters out of 7 PCs (if you count paladins and rangers [and rangers get <em>Entangle</em>, too]).</p><p></p><p></p><p>I was specifically countering your "if they fought 8 ogres, they'd be obliterated" comment. And, I hope you can see that it's very possible to blow one <em>Grease</em> and a summoned monster and run away. And that you could fight them with one <em>Entangle</em> while pinging them with bows from 300 feet and probably suffer no losses other than ammo and a spell slot. The ogres will only have javelins, and those aren't flying the 300 feet necessary to get to you. <em>Entangle</em>, focus fire ping, dead. You could even attempt to draw the 8 ogres from that room out if you are prepared for it. You blow maybe 3 level 1 slots from two casters, leaving yourself with 5/8 level 1's and 6/6 level 2's. Load up your saddlebags with ammo and you're good.</p><p></p><p>And heck, since it's assumed that wands are so cheap, buy a <em>Wand of Entangle</em>, and <em>Wand of Grease</em>, and a <em>Wand of Summon Nature's Ally I</em>. More expensive than a healing wand, sure, but you can do so many more encounters with good tactics and those three wands than bludgeoning your way through. Which, again, I think was the point. With a different type of play, you can bypass, take out, or otherwise overcome challenges using the base assumptions of the game.</p><p></p><p>You can call foul on 3.X magic and CR calculating, and that's not invalid. However, you're the one who was making the argument that the base assumptions of the game assume the party won't win. I used <em>very</em> base mechanics to show that it isn't the case.</p><p></p><p>As always, play what you like <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JamesonCourage, post: 5730657, member: 6668292"] Well, you're the one who said it'd obliterate them. I showed that's not necessarily true (using the base assumptions of the game, just like you were talking about). And, you've been talking about the core assumptions of the game recently, right? I mean, wands of CLW are assumed because they're cheap and available according to the DMG? By that token, shouldn't these level 1 & 2 spells be available to level 4 characters? Your statement wasn't "magic is broken." It has problems, which is why I toned it down in my RPG. Your statement was basically "8 ogres will obliterate a 4th level 3.X party, where that's not the case in earlier editions." I disagreed, and showed why. Passing it off as "well, magic is broken" is true in a sense, but it demonstrates that your point isn't as valid as it was presented. As I pointed out, if you're picking the right fights, you won't be. [I]Entangle[/I] is a level 1 spell that lasts 4 minutes at level 4, and it uses up a single level 1 spell slot (you have 4 level 1's, and 3 level 2's). So, 1/7 of your spells above level 0. Then, you just ride around on horseback, picking off ogres while skirting the edge of the [I]Entangle[/I] spell. I talked about the "open a door and there's 8 ogres" to show that's it's possible to not be "obliterated" by your 8 ogres example, even when it's not what you were aiming for (which is picking and choosing your battles). It's very much in line with 4e's controller role. While magic is too powerful in 3.X from a game balance perspective (in my opinion), I have no idea how that proves your point (that 3.X is more deadly using base assumptions). The one with 7 players and henchmen? I'd trust 7 non-casters to take out 8 ogres on horseback in 3.X. Again, picking and choosing your battles. Pepper them at ranged, focus fire, and keep moving. All out run, stop and shoot, all out run, stop and shoot. Dead ogres. They'd have to get to you, right? Didn't I mention bottlenecking? Blind ogres that are probably prone from [I]Grease[/I], while the Fighter is sitting back with a Summon Nature's Ally I in between him and them (with him 10 feet behind the summon). I think I addressed all of this in my post. But he probably won't go down. If he does, you keep spontaneously casting summons and staying 10 feet behind them. They'll clog the corridor and keep you out of range. I was just pointing out that with proper player tactics, you can do a lot. You seemed to not be able to fathom how. I hope you can see how, now. A [I]Grease[/I] spell will basically immobilize a Frost Giant Jarl at CR 17 (make a DC 10 Balance check at -5). That's a level 1 spell. No, 3.X wasn't great at placing CR or as good at making out-of-the-gate balanced encounters as 4e is. However, you're basing your assumption that beating higher CR enemies this easily is basically impossible. I'm saying that in 3.X, that may not be the right call to make. Yeah, we're close to agreement with this. Though, in 3.X it'd be assumed that you're have 5-ish spellcasters out of 7 PCs (if you count paladins and rangers [and rangers get [I]Entangle[/I], too]). I was specifically countering your "if they fought 8 ogres, they'd be obliterated" comment. And, I hope you can see that it's very possible to blow one [I]Grease[/I] and a summoned monster and run away. And that you could fight them with one [I]Entangle[/I] while pinging them with bows from 300 feet and probably suffer no losses other than ammo and a spell slot. The ogres will only have javelins, and those aren't flying the 300 feet necessary to get to you. [I]Entangle[/I], focus fire ping, dead. You could even attempt to draw the 8 ogres from that room out if you are prepared for it. You blow maybe 3 level 1 slots from two casters, leaving yourself with 5/8 level 1's and 6/6 level 2's. Load up your saddlebags with ammo and you're good. And heck, since it's assumed that wands are so cheap, buy a [I]Wand of Entangle[/I], and [I]Wand of Grease[/I], and a [I]Wand of Summon Nature's Ally I[/I]. More expensive than a healing wand, sure, but you can do so many more encounters with good tactics and those three wands than bludgeoning your way through. Which, again, I think was the point. With a different type of play, you can bypass, take out, or otherwise overcome challenges using the base assumptions of the game. You can call foul on 3.X magic and CR calculating, and that's not invalid. However, you're the one who was making the argument that the base assumptions of the game assume the party won't win. I used [I]very[/I] base mechanics to show that it isn't the case. As always, play what you like :) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
I don't get the dislike of healing surges
Top