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I don't get the dislike of healing surges
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<blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5731113" data-attributes="member: 6668292"><p>You might, but not in concert with the other ogres. You'll move back if you're blind, perhaps, but you won't move the four blind ogres away so that the other four can cram in (as you suggested). That's not fighting as an unorganized individual (which they do).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, fair enough. I'm trying to show that designer assumptions are off when it comes to 3.X, so using them as a base for your argument isn't a great tactic in my mind.</p><p></p><p></p><p>And I'm talking about how it's played using the base mechanics.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Dude, I covered the spells. You lose 1 level 2 and two level 1's. That leaves you able to repeat that one more time, and that's if you decide to stand and fight (I also mentioned retreating after spending two level 1's, drawing them out, and fighting them on better terms). Yeah, standing and fighting would essentially be two fights without basic magic equipment (like scrolls or wands). In a fight that you said "would obliterate them" and according to you is CR+5.</p><p></p><p>In a CR 4 fight, it's what, maybe two ogres? One <em>Grease</em> will probably handle them while the rogue deals sneak attack. If you want to feel extra safe, block them with a <em>Summon Nature's Ally</em>. You'll take them down with ranged attacks before they get up and make it to you. When you do, you've used 2 level 1 spell slots. This is 2 out of 14 spell slots above level 0. You can do this 7 times with base spell slots, and that's not using base assumptions of the system (scrolls and wands).</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is amusing, since you're taking the designer's assumption as correct and throwing a CR+5 encounter at the party (overwhelming, according to the designers). Either the assumptions about the game as presented are correct and the GM isn't softballing, or the assumptions are wrong and some creatures aren't appropriately challenging as presented against certain tactics (which would mean, of course, that an anomaly like a party taking more encounters "than it should be able to" shouldn't really be unbelievable.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The rogue probably has +15 or so to Hide and Move Silently. If he's sneaking ahead, he'll be able to detect the ogres much, much more easily than they can detect him (they get +2 to Spot and Listen). So, yeah, if you can make out what your enemies are, you can often arrange to foil their ambushes or prepare for the fight in favorable ways.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I actually talked about a few scenarios where the players used tactics that favored them. Were you thinking something more like a gladiatorial arena?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think I mentioned being 300 feet away. You aren't throwing it that far. If the horse all out runs, even if they all out run, you've doubled their distance. That's an all out run, stop and focus fire, and repeat. They can never hit you.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well to be fair, if the summon entered, he'd be mush. We want him to clog the doorway, not fight. And, some ogres could definitely use javelins. Depending on preparedness, tables could be set up for full or partial cover, or you could even draw the ogres to the previous room, trap him in the next doorway, and move around the corner so you can hit him but he can't hit you, and neither of the others would have line of sight to you. Hell, you can do that last tactic even if you aren't prepared.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I know they're in temperate hills. That's about it. In a generic "we open the door and find 8 ogres", I was pointing out that it's not going to be "the party is obliterated" necessarily. You threw what you thought was a really rigged fight out there, and I'm trying to show how that's not the case. Throw two ogres at the party and see how it goes.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If what I'm saying works mechanically, <em>the mechanics agree with me</em>. The designers disagreed with me, but I have a feeling they don't as of this point in the life cycle of the game. The books disagree with me, yeah, but I think I've shown where they're lacking.</p><p></p><p>You argued that 7 PCs against 8 ogres is a base assumption for Basic D&D. I said make it 7 PCs against 8 ogres in 3.X and I'll bet on the PCs, and you said "no, that's not the core assumption!" If we're going by core assumptions, <em>Grease</em>, <em>Summoned</em> monsters, <em>Gitterdust</em>, <em>Web</em> (which would own that corridor and give total cover against ranged weapons, as well as lasting 40 minutes), scrolls, wands, etc. are all part of base assumptions in 3.X. If you're looking at a base fight, it's 2 ogres against 4 PCs. I think that the PCs can reasonably tear up those two ogres, especially with tactics.</p><p></p><p>You can't say "7 PCs can take 8 ogres in Basic, so it's more lethal" and turn around and say "7 PCs can't fight 8 ogres in 3.X, that's not the base assumption!" Isn't the point the numbers? And, if we're just going by the core assumptions, isn't that all I've worked with (except for some reason I'm fighting a CR+5 fight instead of 2 ogres)? Which is it, are we using the same numbers to look at lethality, or the base assumptions of the system (Basic of 7 PCs against 8 ogres or 3.X 4 PCs against 2 ogres)?</p><p></p><p>I feel like the goalposts are shifting, here. Maybe you feel I'm softballing, but if you think the designers are right, a CR+5 fight isn't softballing. It's "overpowering" to the PCs. According to the DMG, "the players should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose. The Encounter Level is five or more levels higher than the party." Softball... yeah. Good PC strategy and tactics can win this fight, but it's no "softball" encounter. And, judging by your initial "they'd obliterate the PCs" comment, you didn't think so either.</p><p></p><p>I'll say this much, 4e is a lot more solid than 3.X when it comes to judging difficulty of monsters. A lot more solid. I think basing your opinion on designer assumptions is a mistake against certain PC tactics, <em>which was the point all along</em>. Certain PC tactics will let you go up against a fight you "should" lose and come out victorious. Danny A originally presented this line of thought, and you couldn't fathom how. You've reduced it to broken magic ("go caster or go home") and "softballing" (even against an "overpowering" encounter, since you're sticking to the designer's assumptions, and not the mechanics). Broken magic was never in question (that's in many other threads), and softballing seems rather unreasonable if you believe the designer assumptions were correct.</p><p></p><p>I think my well-oiled party with base assumptions (wands, scrolls, standard spells) could go through 7 CR appropriate fights without needing to heal. That's what, two ogres 7 times? Makes me wish I had said I'd pick a dwarven fighter, they get a nice +4 dodge bonus to AC against ogres. Yeah, I feel okay with certain players saying they take more than 4 fights per rest cycle. Especially once you get away from core books. YMMV, but this thing you can't fathom? It's not unfathomable to me. As always, play what you like <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JamesonCourage, post: 5731113, member: 6668292"] You might, but not in concert with the other ogres. You'll move back if you're blind, perhaps, but you won't move the four blind ogres away so that the other four can cram in (as you suggested). That's not fighting as an unorganized individual (which they do). Okay, fair enough. I'm trying to show that designer assumptions are off when it comes to 3.X, so using them as a base for your argument isn't a great tactic in my mind. And I'm talking about how it's played using the base mechanics. Dude, I covered the spells. You lose 1 level 2 and two level 1's. That leaves you able to repeat that one more time, and that's if you decide to stand and fight (I also mentioned retreating after spending two level 1's, drawing them out, and fighting them on better terms). Yeah, standing and fighting would essentially be two fights without basic magic equipment (like scrolls or wands). In a fight that you said "would obliterate them" and according to you is CR+5. In a CR 4 fight, it's what, maybe two ogres? One [I]Grease[/I] will probably handle them while the rogue deals sneak attack. If you want to feel extra safe, block them with a [I]Summon Nature's Ally[/I]. You'll take them down with ranged attacks before they get up and make it to you. When you do, you've used 2 level 1 spell slots. This is 2 out of 14 spell slots above level 0. You can do this 7 times with base spell slots, and that's not using base assumptions of the system (scrolls and wands). This is amusing, since you're taking the designer's assumption as correct and throwing a CR+5 encounter at the party (overwhelming, according to the designers). Either the assumptions about the game as presented are correct and the GM isn't softballing, or the assumptions are wrong and some creatures aren't appropriately challenging as presented against certain tactics (which would mean, of course, that an anomaly like a party taking more encounters "than it should be able to" shouldn't really be unbelievable. The rogue probably has +15 or so to Hide and Move Silently. If he's sneaking ahead, he'll be able to detect the ogres much, much more easily than they can detect him (they get +2 to Spot and Listen). So, yeah, if you can make out what your enemies are, you can often arrange to foil their ambushes or prepare for the fight in favorable ways. I actually talked about a few scenarios where the players used tactics that favored them. Were you thinking something more like a gladiatorial arena? I think I mentioned being 300 feet away. You aren't throwing it that far. If the horse all out runs, even if they all out run, you've doubled their distance. That's an all out run, stop and focus fire, and repeat. They can never hit you. Well to be fair, if the summon entered, he'd be mush. We want him to clog the doorway, not fight. And, some ogres could definitely use javelins. Depending on preparedness, tables could be set up for full or partial cover, or you could even draw the ogres to the previous room, trap him in the next doorway, and move around the corner so you can hit him but he can't hit you, and neither of the others would have line of sight to you. Hell, you can do that last tactic even if you aren't prepared. I know they're in temperate hills. That's about it. In a generic "we open the door and find 8 ogres", I was pointing out that it's not going to be "the party is obliterated" necessarily. You threw what you thought was a really rigged fight out there, and I'm trying to show how that's not the case. Throw two ogres at the party and see how it goes. If what I'm saying works mechanically, [I]the mechanics agree with me[/I]. The designers disagreed with me, but I have a feeling they don't as of this point in the life cycle of the game. The books disagree with me, yeah, but I think I've shown where they're lacking. You argued that 7 PCs against 8 ogres is a base assumption for Basic D&D. I said make it 7 PCs against 8 ogres in 3.X and I'll bet on the PCs, and you said "no, that's not the core assumption!" If we're going by core assumptions, [I]Grease[/I], [I]Summoned[/I] monsters, [I]Gitterdust[/I], [I]Web[/I] (which would own that corridor and give total cover against ranged weapons, as well as lasting 40 minutes), scrolls, wands, etc. are all part of base assumptions in 3.X. If you're looking at a base fight, it's 2 ogres against 4 PCs. I think that the PCs can reasonably tear up those two ogres, especially with tactics. You can't say "7 PCs can take 8 ogres in Basic, so it's more lethal" and turn around and say "7 PCs can't fight 8 ogres in 3.X, that's not the base assumption!" Isn't the point the numbers? And, if we're just going by the core assumptions, isn't that all I've worked with (except for some reason I'm fighting a CR+5 fight instead of 2 ogres)? Which is it, are we using the same numbers to look at lethality, or the base assumptions of the system (Basic of 7 PCs against 8 ogres or 3.X 4 PCs against 2 ogres)? I feel like the goalposts are shifting, here. Maybe you feel I'm softballing, but if you think the designers are right, a CR+5 fight isn't softballing. It's "overpowering" to the PCs. According to the DMG, "the players should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose. The Encounter Level is five or more levels higher than the party." Softball... yeah. Good PC strategy and tactics can win this fight, but it's no "softball" encounter. And, judging by your initial "they'd obliterate the PCs" comment, you didn't think so either. I'll say this much, 4e is a lot more solid than 3.X when it comes to judging difficulty of monsters. A lot more solid. I think basing your opinion on designer assumptions is a mistake against certain PC tactics, [I]which was the point all along[/I]. Certain PC tactics will let you go up against a fight you "should" lose and come out victorious. Danny A originally presented this line of thought, and you couldn't fathom how. You've reduced it to broken magic ("go caster or go home") and "softballing" (even against an "overpowering" encounter, since you're sticking to the designer's assumptions, and not the mechanics). Broken magic was never in question (that's in many other threads), and softballing seems rather unreasonable if you believe the designer assumptions were correct. I think my well-oiled party with base assumptions (wands, scrolls, standard spells) could go through 7 CR appropriate fights without needing to heal. That's what, two ogres 7 times? Makes me wish I had said I'd pick a dwarven fighter, they get a nice +4 dodge bonus to AC against ogres. Yeah, I feel okay with certain players saying they take more than 4 fights per rest cycle. Especially once you get away from core books. YMMV, but this thing you can't fathom? It's not unfathomable to me. As always, play what you like :) [/QUOTE]
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