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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9021646" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Except I just showed it isn't stupidly overpowered? Did you read any of my points or just skip over to "I'm right and you are wrong"? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sort of, technically. </p><p></p><p>The <strong><u>expected</u></strong> power budget of the old warlock was 20 spell slots, all of fairly high level (5th or up) as well as 8 invocations. (yes, they didn't usually reach 2 short rests and a use of Eldritch Master, but that was the expectation when they were designed.) </p><p></p><p>This version has 15 spell slots, a free casting of a ritual, and a free spell from the pact list. Mostly low level (4th and below) And they have 9 invocations. </p><p></p><p>They are fairly comparable, but we have to ask the question "what is more valuable, high level spells or low level spells). In practice, this warlock will have more spells to throw around, but they are all of lower levels. So would it actually be too powerful to give them a single third level spell 1/day at 5th, and then follow the full caster progression, while keeping 7 to 8 invocations? I'm not convinced it would be. </p><p></p><p>Especially since, full caster progression is 22 spells, before class ablities, and the wizard's arcane recovery is +10 spell levels, and they get two free at-will spells and a free 1/day spell. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, it will always be less flexible than the wizard, have you seen what the wizard can do? Nothing is close to the wizard in this entire playtest. </p><p></p><p>But, seriously, have you looked at the Invocation list? Here is a quick run-down for you. </p><p></p><p>three of them modify a single cantrip</p><p>One of them modifies a spell</p><p>FIFTEEN of them are basically just +1 spell at-will, some are modified, others aren't. </p><p>One of them improves your familiar</p><p>one of them improves your combat ability</p><p>one is a feat, and non-repeatable</p><p>one improves spellcasting with a cool effect</p><p>One is "get high level spells" </p><p></p><p></p><p>So, let's say I wanted to really go ALL in on being a melee gish warlock. I have two options for invocations that aren't basically spells. Two. That isn't a lot of flexibility compared to if I wanted to lean into my magic which gives me, what? Twenty-two options? </p><p></p><p>Warlocks are casters. There is no getting around that fact. Everything they have is "more magic" but less flexible than the wizard or the sorcerer. Especially since the warlock with a familiar is... also just a caster. So why are we trying to pretend that this ins't the case?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9021646, member: 6801228"] Except I just showed it isn't stupidly overpowered? Did you read any of my points or just skip over to "I'm right and you are wrong"? Sort of, technically. The [B][U]expected[/U][/B] power budget of the old warlock was 20 spell slots, all of fairly high level (5th or up) as well as 8 invocations. (yes, they didn't usually reach 2 short rests and a use of Eldritch Master, but that was the expectation when they were designed.) This version has 15 spell slots, a free casting of a ritual, and a free spell from the pact list. Mostly low level (4th and below) And they have 9 invocations. They are fairly comparable, but we have to ask the question "what is more valuable, high level spells or low level spells). In practice, this warlock will have more spells to throw around, but they are all of lower levels. So would it actually be too powerful to give them a single third level spell 1/day at 5th, and then follow the full caster progression, while keeping 7 to 8 invocations? I'm not convinced it would be. Especially since, full caster progression is 22 spells, before class ablities, and the wizard's arcane recovery is +10 spell levels, and they get two free at-will spells and a free 1/day spell. Yeah, it will always be less flexible than the wizard, have you seen what the wizard can do? Nothing is close to the wizard in this entire playtest. But, seriously, have you looked at the Invocation list? Here is a quick run-down for you. three of them modify a single cantrip One of them modifies a spell FIFTEEN of them are basically just +1 spell at-will, some are modified, others aren't. One of them improves your familiar one of them improves your combat ability one is a feat, and non-repeatable one improves spellcasting with a cool effect One is "get high level spells" So, let's say I wanted to really go ALL in on being a melee gish warlock. I have two options for invocations that aren't basically spells. Two. That isn't a lot of flexibility compared to if I wanted to lean into my magic which gives me, what? Twenty-two options? Warlocks are casters. There is no getting around that fact. Everything they have is "more magic" but less flexible than the wizard or the sorcerer. Especially since the warlock with a familiar is... also just a caster. So why are we trying to pretend that this ins't the case? [/QUOTE]
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